Time for a change??

boatmum · Post by **boatmum** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:42 pm

Thought slalom specific software was already available for all divisions?

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:04 pm

Yes, it is, it was used at Sowerby Bridge, Howsham Weir and many other events and will be in use at Interclubs, there is even an advert for it in the year book.

Just contact Ken for a copy in exchange for a donation to the RNLI.

Works very well, calculates points and even had automated bib lookup so you don't have to type in all those pesky details.

boatmum · Post by **boatmum** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:54 am

Ah thought so!

No mucking about with excel sheets etc - great!

Many thanks

Vkcmikey · Post by **Vkcmikey** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:25 pm

Just seen this post as I only glance over this forum every now and again. I'm not a slalom paddler but have helped out run the last few cardington events and i am not the only one who has been thinking that the whole system is outdated

This came as a surprise to me that the TUTTI system had been used at Lee valley. Here we have the future home of the 2012 olympics and a great chance to implement a new system the year before the event. But no, the equipment being used is so out of date it's a joke. IMHO.

End of my rant but here is what I have thought about from the posts above and my own thoughts of the last few years:

The card system:
This is very outdated and having to send out all the cards to different people is in my mind very outdated and am surprised that this hasn't been replaced sooner. Why we are in 2011 and still using a paper based system is beyond me.
Having also helped in the running of marathon events they have at least got round everyone sending in cards and have a central database which is updated after every event so that competitors are in the correct divisions.
I personal think that the BCU should look at this as a whole across all canoeing and kayaking competition and come up with a central system.
This could work as a central login and see all competition and enter and pay for all events. This could make the instant start list. Making it easy for the organiser to set up the event.
Organisers would then be able to download an appliance/application which would do all the running of the weekend and even scoring and timing as well as points at the end of the event. This could then generate a results sheet and update for the central database. Which could be reviewed those that need to review it and then a download is available before the next event which will have all competitors in the correct division for late/offline and all online entries for that event.
Personally I don't think that this would be hard to create. To me it sounds like a great project for a few uni students got get degrees off the back of and include a new wireless scoring and communication system.
Results displayed at the event can be broadcast over a wifi link and as most people now have a smartphone with wifi connections it would then be possible to see the results almost live.
Checking of other already extisting systems should be check before reinventing the wheel.
This should all be made idiot proof and should be as time restrictive as possible as we are all volunteers at the end of the day.

Data Protection act:
Anne said about the DPA. This would make it safer as only people with access to the central database would have all the details. Where as now the organiser and all people who handle the cards get as much information as they like by looking at the rear of the cards.

I think there is an easy way round this problem. It should be address sooner rather than later, after all it is 2011 and I can watch the worlds online and see almost live when they get a 2 or 50. And we are still using a paper based system.

Wow that went on for a bit but I am willing to help out where I can.

PeterC · Post by **PeterC** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:46 pm

Yes we have to modernise and improve however funding is challenging for all new developments particularly at the moment. We do need to discuss this at the ACM and find a way forward. However without satellite uplink is is just a tad difficult to get any kind of connection at some courses e.g. Washburn and even Tully has challenges providing a mobile internet connect at any speed.

Results are coming out faster and are more complete on line than they used to be. I agree the time for cards and cheques should be accepted to be coming to an end however I think we need to evolve out of the dependency rather than a radical approach. Cards for example are difficult to contemplate replacing at a Div 4 and using electronic payment in a field with no possible internet connection....

John Sturgess · Post by **John Sturgess** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:47 am

Cardless events and results official on the day do not need live internet connections: you download before you go.

There is no need to connect cardless entry (which is possible now, and needs to be uniform across the sport) with electronic payment, which does not need to be uniform across the sport - in fact it does not even need to be uniform at each event.

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:51 am

Cardless events are not possible at every site or every division. A fact that John and do not agree on so he will probably lambast me for that. Just recording that there are differences of view, not intending to respond again. But consider a div 4 (no ranking list) at a remote location where you are dependent on generators for electricity, in a tent, with many late entries, and it starts raining....

I also do not agree that anything below div 2 is not slalom. There are many paddlers who compete at slalom and are happy in division 3 or 4, some get to division 2, some do not. But that leads into the discussion of an 'active paddler' all better face to face rather than electronic. Anyone want to arrange a meeting to understand this? ???

bankside · Post by **bankside** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:09 pm

boatmum wrote:Ah thought so!

No mucking about with excel sheets etc - great!

Many thanks

Well actually the "software" is spreadsheets with macros....
But this is good as it should be usable for Div 3 and Div 4 events by almost everybody with a PC

andya · Post by **andya** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:22 pm

Canadian PAddler wrote:Cardless events are not possible at every site or every division....

I'm sorry but that's rubish.

Download before event. Work offline during event. Upload (soon) after event. Perfectly possible

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:41 pm

I'm sorry but that's rubish.

Thats two who disagree, but it only takes one event. . . .

ps I am not against cardless where it can be done, in fact it IS the way to go

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:51 pm

Query for those suggesting cardless at lower divisions (which I would love as I hate filling them in!). I can see how it would work for P/1 as there are lots of computers in control already. Can someone explain (genuine interest) how the scores from the judges would be recorded, checked and put into the computer? Do you envisage lots of computers at each event so the judges clarkes can input directly into the computer? What about transmission errors etc?

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:05 am

There is no need for any change to the judges job, nor indeed in control.

Instead of writing the information from the gate judges on a card as is currently done they would simply enter it on a computer. Transmission errors would be checked as they are now by refering back to the judge/judging sheets.

All that is different is that the clerk in control enters the data in a computer rather than writing it on a card.

It would mean 2 or 3 extra computers in control. Most clubs could probably find these amongst their members, laptops having a battery would survive any break in power from a genny.

The results displayed on paper would show the touches on each gate so it would still be possible to protest as is done now. Remote screens could also show touches awarded which might help with protest times.

In actual fact nothing much changes except there are no cards used in the running of the slalom.

Entries could be taken on card, by email or on paper, it makes no difference once entered onto the slalom software.

Current slalom softwre (such as simply slalom) would need to allow for multiple users and an extra piece of software would need to be developed to enter touches. This would probably require a small database rather than a spreadsheet to store the data but technically its not imposible.

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:11 am

I also guess you could still run cards (in control) and have just one person entering the touches and the time as now for those events where its not possible or desirable to have more than one computer. It would be a bit slower but I guess still possible. So overall the same system would still work. so instead of taking a number of cards out for display you would simply take out a sheet of A4 every so often (which could be date/time stamped to help with protests!).

There is a lot to consider but overall I think it is possible and has benefits.

andya · Post by **andya** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:39 pm

djberriman wrote:Instead of writing the information from the gate judges on a card as is currently done they would simply enter it on a computer. Transmission errors would be checked as they are now by refering back to the judge/judging sheets.

All that is different is that the clerk in control enters the data in a computer rather than writing it on a card.

OR .. even simpler solutions for lower divisions.

One PC at an event, one printer. Print out a simple grids of starters and gate numbers for use in control.

These grids get completed manually by the good folks in control talking to the Judges.

The grids are then entered every few competitors by the one data entry person on the PC. One set of gates and a time entered every 1 min.

Perfectly possible ... 1PC ... not a card in sight ..

Vkcmikey · Post by **Vkcmikey** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:10 pm

One PC at an event, one printer. Print out a simple grids of starters and gate numbers for use in control.

These grids get completed manually by the good folks in control talking to the Judges.

Brilliant and simple idea.

I have been told that the Tuttii equipment was only used once at lee valley and this brings me to my first point:
I don't understand the point between having different systems for different divisional events. IMHO if its not good enough to do all divisions and locations its not the right system to be using.

Funding may be difficult at times but without an idea of possible system who knows how much it would cost and who can say we can't afford it if no one has asked. I can think of half a dozen ideas to where you can ask for funding without even googleing it.
If moved to a central online version (which i think needs to be done to get this system to work at its best) there is a easy way to fund that and that is the same way that most sites are on the internet with advertising. The advantage of that is we know the people who would be visiting the site and we know who would like to advertise on it. There in the year book every year.

My Vision:
Before and after the event:
All racers go to one place to enter a race. Paid online at the time of entry. Offline entries could be sent still to the organiser and they could add them to there race.
Day before the race when entries are closed the organiser would be able to download the events information and current database of paddlers, incase of late entries.
All div reps then have centralised system to ensure results are correct and have an email address on there if someone needs to check something.
They could then an then check results and make changes if need be.
The system could then easy check levis and fee due and create a printout for the organiser.
End of the day all information is submitted online to a portal.
Then database is updated. Ready for next set of races.
If promted at a race they can see there new number before they receive their bib. So can race with it and when next race organiser enters them can check it exists.

when at the course(Offline):
http://www.alge-timing.com/alge....h-E.htm
Ignoring the scoreboard and the ski jump bit

this is how it could work.
Starter set them off through the beam start. then the handsets would be programmed to ask the judges the bib number and pens on each gate the judge is judging. Would also require them to write down the results as well for judging sheets etc. this would then be sent straight to the computer and have almost live results out onto a scoreboard/screen/website hosted on a local wifi network for people on smart phones.
I don't think that this would to hard to achieve but what ever the solution it needs to be the most effective after all we are all volunteers and it should be the most time effect to the people involved.

As for late entries issue with online entries i personally think that it would reduce the number of them as it could allow for people to decide much later if they are going or not.
New paddlers at events would be like entering people currently. once entered once they would be on the system for the rest of the year.

A question to those who race at events where there is no power, what is the current set up?