Judging is such a hard job especially when the wind is blowing. The focus and concentration needed to judge for hours on end is incredibly demanding and the consequences of a mistake for the athletes can change the course of their lives.
Many years ago (mid 80’s) I understand there was some work done to try and develop a electronic touch sensing system for slalom poles. Does anybody know who did this or is anybody with good knowledge of electronic have any ideas of how this can be done?
It seems if this can be achieved it would be a major advance for our sport.
Electronic gates
Re: Electronic gates
Hi Jim,
Not sure whether you spotted the thread a couple down viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1878 ? I'll merge the threads if there's no reason for two.
But yes, I have a strong knowledge of electronics, and some knowledge of how the various touch systems that are currently in use, work.
I have already started on some research into costs and how to power/communicate with such a system, bearing in mind that, unlike a touch screen, there is no need for multiple 'cells', in order to locate what part of a screen was touched, and ITO electrodes (the main cost in a touch screen, allows for a transparent conductor). My best guess is somewhere around £5 per pole for this kind of system.
Another alternative that was suggested, is by charging a pole to a high voltage. This charge would then drop if the pole was touched. However, I would be tempted to rule this out completely, as you would need a high tension power supply to ensure condutance into a paddler's kit, providing ~(4000V?). These are fairly inefficient, so difficult to power, would have issues in humid conditions, will give paddlers electric shocks, are potentially dangerous if water leaked into the system, or if they broke in any way, and finally, would be very expensive.
My main issue is how we would prevent false readinga caused by rain, water splashes, etc.
Not sure whether you spotted the thread a couple down viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1878 ? I'll merge the threads if there's no reason for two.
But yes, I have a strong knowledge of electronics, and some knowledge of how the various touch systems that are currently in use, work.
I have already started on some research into costs and how to power/communicate with such a system, bearing in mind that, unlike a touch screen, there is no need for multiple 'cells', in order to locate what part of a screen was touched, and ITO electrodes (the main cost in a touch screen, allows for a transparent conductor). My best guess is somewhere around £5 per pole for this kind of system.
Another alternative that was suggested, is by charging a pole to a high voltage. This charge would then drop if the pole was touched. However, I would be tempted to rule this out completely, as you would need a high tension power supply to ensure condutance into a paddler's kit, providing ~(4000V?). These are fairly inefficient, so difficult to power, would have issues in humid conditions, will give paddlers electric shocks, are potentially dangerous if water leaked into the system, or if they broke in any way, and finally, would be very expensive.
My main issue is how we would prevent false readinga caused by rain, water splashes, etc.
Re: Electronic gates
Hi Mike,
I did not see the other thread, it is along similar lines, but I was interested to see who we already have in the sport with any knowledge of this kind of technology.
Interesting to see you guess the cost is somewhere around £5 per pole on the touch sensitive side of things.
One thing that is paramount in any system is obviously the cost, but if it works I think there would be quite a large market world wide for such a system. The are now many world class performance organisations as well as our own and around the world who spend multi millions of euro's, pounds, dollars ect on preparing their athlete"s for World and Olympic competition and I am sure they would be itching for such a system not only for races but also for training, especially if it was being used at major event"s.
As a world wide sport we spend multi millions on artificial courses and facilities. My feeling is that if a system can be proven to work, the money to buy it would be found, there could well be a very big commercial incentive to develop such a system and as with all technology the cost would drop as more were produced and that would eventually allow lower level event to use the same system.
Lets not kid ourselves there is no money in this sport. You only have to look at what we have in the UK alone, Lee Valley, Cardiff, Nottingham and Teeside to see that money can be found. We really have moved on in term of facilities not only in the UK but throughout the world and I feel this is possibly the next step for canoe slalom to move on in term of professionalism and presentation to the public. At the moment controversial judging decisions undermine the sport in the eyes of the public. I often think we are asking the impossible from judges who are often put in a very difficult position as the pressure on them to always be right is immense.
The problem from the athlete's and coaches perspective is that not going very close to the pole equates to paddling further and often slower on a slalom course and until we have such a system the fastest paddlers will have a very big problem to solve. As humans we can perform very finite tasks at very great speeds and it is those same finite movements and those speeds that pose the problem's for the human judge no matter how hard they try mistake by both paddlers and judges will be made. At the moment the athlete can either go close to the poles and rely on great judging and their own skill or the use more space and often go slower and that is a very fine line to paddle when the pressure is on to win GOLD!
Surely such a system can be developed with everything else we can now do on the technology front!
Does anybody have ideas on who could be approached to come up with such a system?
I did not see the other thread, it is along similar lines, but I was interested to see who we already have in the sport with any knowledge of this kind of technology.
Interesting to see you guess the cost is somewhere around £5 per pole on the touch sensitive side of things.
One thing that is paramount in any system is obviously the cost, but if it works I think there would be quite a large market world wide for such a system. The are now many world class performance organisations as well as our own and around the world who spend multi millions of euro's, pounds, dollars ect on preparing their athlete"s for World and Olympic competition and I am sure they would be itching for such a system not only for races but also for training, especially if it was being used at major event"s.
As a world wide sport we spend multi millions on artificial courses and facilities. My feeling is that if a system can be proven to work, the money to buy it would be found, there could well be a very big commercial incentive to develop such a system and as with all technology the cost would drop as more were produced and that would eventually allow lower level event to use the same system.
Lets not kid ourselves there is no money in this sport. You only have to look at what we have in the UK alone, Lee Valley, Cardiff, Nottingham and Teeside to see that money can be found. We really have moved on in term of facilities not only in the UK but throughout the world and I feel this is possibly the next step for canoe slalom to move on in term of professionalism and presentation to the public. At the moment controversial judging decisions undermine the sport in the eyes of the public. I often think we are asking the impossible from judges who are often put in a very difficult position as the pressure on them to always be right is immense.
The problem from the athlete's and coaches perspective is that not going very close to the pole equates to paddling further and often slower on a slalom course and until we have such a system the fastest paddlers will have a very big problem to solve. As humans we can perform very finite tasks at very great speeds and it is those same finite movements and those speeds that pose the problem's for the human judge no matter how hard they try mistake by both paddlers and judges will be made. At the moment the athlete can either go close to the poles and rely on great judging and their own skill or the use more space and often go slower and that is a very fine line to paddle when the pressure is on to win GOLD!
Surely such a system can be developed with everything else we can now do on the technology front!
Does anybody have ideas on who could be approached to come up with such a system?