Open Divisions

[BaldockBabe]

I think tweeking the points would still be irrelevant and is tinkering around the edges of a poor idea. The point is that the higher division paddlers would still take the points from those the event is alledgedly aimed at.

It would make P/1 events not worth it for Div 1s as the Prems are more likely to hang around since they are there anyway. The Tully event at Easter would not be worth it as the Prems will probably make a holiday of their trip. The HPP 1/2 wouldn't be worth it as many Prems live locally. That leaves very few events worth Div 1s trying to get points at.

This would apply equally down the divisions. In our region there are no events above Div 2. That means there are a lot of us in P/1 that could paddle at lower events just because they are local. Actually, as a lower end Div 1 I would get more points at a Div 2 than at a Div 1 with Prems.

[Dee]

BaldockBabe

Not sure I can entirely agree with you......

Looking at a P/1 events first:

• - these are usually run as Prem Sat, Div 1 Sunday
  - they are on harder water so will be level 1 worth 1000 points for both races (original allocation as opposed to my suggested revision)
  - assuming that priority is given to div 1 entries at the div 1 race (a key aspect I believe) then most of the paddlers (almost certainly over half) will be div1 competitors
  - therefore even if all the prems beat all the div 1s then the top div 1 competitors will get a minimum of 500 points and probably more
  - if points for promotion are set at 2250 (as opposed to the current 4750), then only being able to achieve a max of 500 points will not have a negative effect on promotion, and indeed those that do particularly well and beat some prems could get promoted faster.

[Dee]

Div 2/3 Slaloms:

• -I don't think you will get huge numbers of P/1s turning up at level 3, div 2/3 slaloms, but agree that the local paddlers may turn up.
  - At the moment promotion from div 2 to div 1 is set at 3600 ie average of 850 per race for four races with a max of 1000 points per race
  - Proposed promotion from div 2 to 1 is 800, ie average of 160 per race for five races (or 200 for four)
  - So even if several prem/1s turn up, it shouldn't have any impact on that average
  - On top of that the better div 2s will get more points at the div 1 races

More opportunities to paddle and collect points is a key benefit with this proposal and I think this particularly applies at the mid-ranking levels where we loose people because of lack of events.

[BaldockBabe]

I think you have to look at it from those not at the top end of the division as well as those at the top given the alleged aim is to retain paddlers (according to Nick). Those of us in the middle to bottom of the division race for points. Those points are valuable not for promoton but to give us a sense of how we are doing comparred to our peers I.e. The others in our division. At a P/1 event iif there are 10 prems taking the top 10 spots and there are 20 div 1s those comming last will only get 33 rather than 50 points. All great for those who would usualy get over 500 points, not great for those who usually get iunder 500.

Ths works perfectky for those wanting to hit Prem/ GB but given there are few that will ever reach this level its not great for the majority in the sport.

No one who supports this motion has actually told the rest of us what this wll achieve other than to let a few more people race a few more events (which those of us opposed have already said is covered by officials runs/ open events). Those of us opposed have put forward numerous suggestions for ways of retaining/ attracting new people which do not effect the status quo and are getting no responses on them!

[Carlosvalderama]

There are a lot of posts flying around on this topic and haven't had time to read them all so excuse me if this has already been covered.
But would open divisions not be useful in situations where the water levels affect the event?
An example would be Shepperton, the Div 1 was cancelled earlier in the year because the levels were too low and then if I remember rightly the lower divison event was cancelled because the water was too high.

If it was an open event both events could've taken place and the level of the event decided closer to the time.
I admit that alot of the lower divison paddlers would be put off by high conditions and the higher division paddlers put off by a 'mill pond' but there is still an event on and the chance to get points.
THis would be particularly helpful to the people in the south where events can be few and far between.

[Dee]

BaldockBabe

Looking at it from the mid bottom end - yes you get 33 instead of 50 points in the proposed scenario, but so does everyone else at the same level. But the advantage is that you can attend a lower divisional race and still get some points or race a level up and (assuming you don't go fishing) still get a handful of points.

I understand that you are racing for points; I believe that the reason many people don't go and do more judges runs are because they can't afford the time/money to go to events where they can't gain points. Being able to race at a venue and weekend that suits a lower/middle ranking paddler and get points is more likely to encourage them to stay.

A tweek that I would like to see is that all paddlers paddling down are required to judge, so that paddling down effectively means entering as judge but also getting points. This would mean a greater pool of judges.

However, I think we may have to shake hands and agree to disagree on this topic

[Veronica]

Div 2/3/4 slaloms are banned because not challenging for div 2/ too challenging for div 4 but under open divisions it is ok for Prem/1 paddler to enter a div 3/4 event??? CONFLICTING IDEAS???

I fail to see how open divisions will increase retention. It appears to be totally demoralising to lower divisional paddlers. People like to win and the bigger the number of points gained the more impressive the result. Only giving div 3/4 events a maximum of 125 points when prem get 1000 is dicriminating on the basis of experience/ability.

What has happened to "putting paddlers first" as the yearbook says in bold letters? This proposal appears to put the Prem paddlers first.

Page 105 "All young people have the right to participate in our sport in an enjoyable and safe environment". What young person is going to enjoy being 20 or so lower places down because of paddlers down?

[HaRVey]

Agreed! This is not a good route to go down. There is nothing positive for the sport long term.

There are only short term gains for some small minorities in the sport.

Changing magnitude of the points, makes no difference to the results, it is the "value" that the points have relative to each other.

We want to encourage participation. People need a structure that they understand, our current system does this.

We want to inspire our competitors, young or old.
We want them to get a sense of achievement.
We want them to get the mental approach to winning. (Winning in itself is a mental skill, which takes practice.)

We would like our sport to retain more paddlers.
In which case we need a greater Social side to the sport. University sport has a great social life, they are all in University groups, known as clubs.

Stafford and Stone Canoe CLUB have 20% of Prem, they have retained paddlers. Across all classes in Prem. But they have not retained 100% of the people that started at the club, more like 10-15%. This is the nature of sport. However, they retain many more than others, because there is a social side through the club activities, and through Interclubs especially.

If you want a consistent social life, you need a consistent social calendar. And the only two points that i can draw out of all the posts that have been going about is:

1. Do we need more Premier Events? (I'm not actually certain we do, though this seems to be the conclusion of some)
For Discussion

2. The events need to be spread throughout the year, not 5 in March, and 4 in Sept/Oct.

(This is equally important for the lower divisions, who have had so many races cancelled this year whicc has equally had a negative effect) Does need discussing in my opinion, it needs fixing by the slalom committee. And in my opinion this is one of those ones, where they bite the bullett, and say it may cost more, or be at the expense of the international paddlers, but our sport as a whole needs its races through the end of spring and summer too, not as it was this year.)
And Discuss.

[Nick Penfold]

it needs fixing by the slalom committee

The Slalom Committee would need much more money than they have, and a magic wand, to deliver the things you want, Robin, and frankly saying "the Committee should fix it" is a cop-out. Putting summer Prem races into the calendar is for the clubs and the paddlers on the ground, not the Committee, to deliver, if they can. The most practical way to do it is probably to give Prems some sort of access to Div 1 events, or (if we stick with the present structure) to make some of those summer Div 1 weekends into Prem/1s.

By the way it was you who suggested rolling rankings. But they have little meaning when most paddlers established in a division have five races to count while promotees start from nothing. In divisions other than Prem, where considerable numbers of paddlers are both moving on up and coming in from below, they would be meaningless, but their potential value is just as great or (because they could enable paddlers to carry good results forward from one year to the next and win promotion sooner) greater. Hence the quest for some sort of common value for points. That could be achieved, perhaps, by sticking to the division structure we have, but setting the maximum points differently for each division.

[oldschool]

Two things

Breaking something to see if you can fix it is madness. We have a good, easy to follow and progressive structure to the sport at the moment. I can't see how destroying the current ranking system will attract and retain any paddlers to the sport, and in my opinion it will probably have the adverse affect. Kids and novice paddlers need a progressive structure to help them develop and our current system provides this.


I'm probably going back a few years (and this may be off topic) but did there not used to be 11 prems a year? why did we go down to 9? Any ties were settled with best non counting result. This may give more scope to add some summer races. Probably the artificial venues would be best suited for summer races as they can be more certain of having water. Obviously there may be cost implications but combined with good promotion on the back of gold medals these issues must be solvable. The guys on the team would still make the same races they always do just not the summer events if they are at worlds/world cups.

[Nick Penfold]

Number of Prem races according to my records. These are races that happened - races on the calendar may have been lost:
2002 11
2003 11
2004 7? I think there's something wrong with my records here, unless two or three races were lost. Anyone remember?
2005 10
2006 10
2007 9
2008 8
2009 9
2010 10
2011 9

[Dee]

2004 would have been another Olympics year - maybe prem races were lost as a result ????

There seems to be a lot of focus on Prems here. I think this is about other divisions. No one in my family has been in prem, only in 4,3,2,1,2. Throughout all their time paddling we have struggled to find events on weekends we can manage that are within reasonable travelling distance and that offer a level of water that is appealing (they are both reasonably competent on big water albeit a bit slow for the higher divisions). Yes, they could do officials runs and very occasionally do, but although we will often help out at the events we attend, we really need to focus on events where points can be gained. So to go to races where some points are available but which fit in with our other priorities would have been exactly what we needed.

I think both of "my" paddlers are among those that are on the verge of being lost to the sport; they have competed very little in the last two years. This proposal may even be too late, but it would have made a big difference (and might still do). Of course, if they do stop competing the sport will not lose top competition potential but we are, I think, talking about retention of paddlers across the range here not just those aiming for 2016.

[HaRVey]

Therefore the issue is location/number of races: Not Divisional status.

It is abundantly clear, that if you live in a location that has slalom training nearby, you have more chance of becoming a slalom paddler.

If you live in a location which is closer to the slalom race sites you will participate more often. If your club is the one running the event, you are likely to attend/help/race regardless of points being available or not.

Your issue is cost/benefit ratio. Unfortunately sport costs money.
Our sport, regardless of any ones stand point, is a predominately middle class sport, Because the sport requires a commitment of parental time and money, in getting to and from events, as well as large costs in equipment.

Sadly, The number of kids i see with brand new boats, which make no difference to their paddling is becoming a massively more common occurrence. In my opinion, until probably as far up as the top 20 in prem, there is almost no significant difference between having a boat 3 years old and a boat brand new. Other than the pretty pictures, and the cost being more than double. But thats another topic.

So the real thing you need is a good local slalom club.
That has an active community of paddlers, who go training together, regularly (regardless of the level of training). Who run races together, who go out for a drink together, who put on fun social events, like fancy dress paddles up style events. Who can share lifts to races together. Who think its a good laugh to go for a weekend trip to wales, together, and like meeting up with their other friends from around the country, together.

The real thing that will retain people, is not a ranking system or points however big or small, (that's all just a relative perspective to what you get right now). The same cost/benefit ratio will stop you, or someone else, next year because there isn't enough incentive to race, if Money is the issue, there is little the sport can do, but the sport can boost

friendship/social activity; a common interest in Canoe Slalom and this requires regular opportunities to meet up...

This requires active clubs/centre's with interested people to paddle together as this is the most paddling all of us will do, if the race day is all the training you are doing, then this is half the problem. We do NOT need to aim to be world champions, just to better ourselves each day, this is what keeps people motivated.

We require regular races, throughout the country, and throughout the year. This would give paddlers an opportunity to socialise, to meet their friends, to pit themselves against their foes, to laugh at their mistakes, to come last, to win races, to battle with their nerves, to show great improvements, to enjoy the sport on race day.
And most importantly to have someone to revel in all those experiences with.

[HaRVey]

I worry that my comments are all negative, and that is not my point, I am on here to move our sport forward.
So I'll stick my neck out, here is my next positive suggestion:

My suggested race calendar for next year 2013

2/3 March -
Tryweryn Prem Qualification
Tryweryn Prem Semi Finals/Finals + Div 1

16/17 March
SheppertonDouble Div 1


30/31 March
Grandtully - Prem 2
Prem 3

6/7 April
Grantully Double Div 1 + Pan celtic


3/4 May
HPP - Prem 4 Qualification
Prem Semi Finals/Finals + Div 1

17/18May
HPP Double Div 1 + Inter Regionals/Panceltic


1/2 June
Tryweryn Prem 5
Div 1

15/16 June
Washburn Div 1 Double


6/7 July
Cardiff Prem 6
Cardiff Div 1


24/25 August
Grandtully Double Div 1

31Aug/ 1 Sept
Hpp McConkey Prem 7 Qualifcation
Prem SemiFinals /Finals + Div 1


28/29 Sept
Teeside - Prem Qualification 8
Prem Semi Finals /Finals + Div 1

5/6 Oct
Llandysul Double Div 1


26/27 Oct
Serpents Tail Double Div 1

3/4 Nov
Lee Valley - British Open/Prem 9 Qualification
Semi Finals/Finals


Total Number of Prems - 9
Total Number of Premier Finals - 5
Total Number of Div 1s - 19



At this point Nick, I would say the slalom committee, DOES need to do more to address this issue. So I have come with a suggestion for people to discuss/criticise.

Clubs/WCA/SCA/ECA all work under the guidance of the Slalom committee. If the ACM/Slalom Committee say we need to put on 5 Championship Prem races, and aim for a Prem each month (lets aim for the first weekend of each month, with a Div 1 on the sunday, (similar to the Stafford and Stone - McConkey Race), but in addition we should also have an A and B finals, so semi finalists get two runs on Sunday.
(Div 1 paddlers can judge on the Saturday hence getting more practice/paddling - Prems who fail to qualify can judge on the sunday, or go home, their choice (I am aware I am not in the best position to speak for these people, but I believe this would be appropriate opportunity and race experience for all, to compare themselves)

This type of race calendar would create a structure for all, and would do more to retain people in the sport.
We would have Prems to inspire div 1's, coach and share their knowledge and experience of an evening/day. at all the championship races and Prems may get into the habit of doing this at traditional PRem/1's

We would have Prem's to demonstrate the best way to do the courses.
We would have more water time for all.
We we would have a saturday evening when most would expect to be close to the race venue, and hence create more opportunity for socialising.
We would not need open divisions, everyone in Div1/Prem could see their level, and their progression, and could easily see the comparable levels of skill.

The events would be more comparable to international format. This prepares our elite who aim to do well abroad. This also provides more obvious racing time for Prem paddlers.

This is better for Div 1 paddlers, they still come and race, but they have an expectation to come to learn something, and that the courses may be tougher, than double div1's (MAY not WILL), this improves ability again.
There is a consistent number of race weekends for Div'1's,
There is a consistent number of races for Prems, not all bunched together.

This framework also provides a structure to put all the DIv 2's, 3's and 4's into as well, giving every other weekend, as a likely time when these races could occur, as well as the odd few being run against div1's/prems as they are already.

So what are the objections?
What do we need to do, to be able to do this?

[Nick Penfold]

Robin's general drift is a more even spread over the year. I like it and I've been trying to post a comparison with the official one. Can't work out how to publish a table here so it's at http://www.canoeslalom.co.uk/info/2013c ... arison.htm

However: the "managed calendar" has been a ghastly burden to everyone who has ever taken it on - Jenny is a hero to stick it for so long. As well as when there's water and when there's access, there's also each club's when we can and when we will, and it's all like herding cats.