Looking After Each Other

[stevepearson]

HPP races typically have safety with throw lines along the course - other races do other things - BUT......

......Getting back to the 2 paddlers at the bottom of the course - make it simple, if the person on finish see's someone get off before they should then they get disqualified. If that's too tough then put up a sign so they can be reminded; some races have signs others don't.

If someone is swimming then stop & help - its not the world championships or Olympics. You may be on a good run, but if your that good then you can always put in another one. There will always be things putting you off on a race day so just go with it, it'll make you a better paddler or a better person!


Only one other point that i feel is relevant to the thread - is paddlers being upset at the bottom of the course, and this happens a lot - it may help them focus if they are thinking about safety rather than smashing their paddles or throwing them 20 yards or more - how can they be safety if they don't have a paddle or break it? not sure how to get that focus but just putting it out there as a positive way forward.

[davebrads]

- Long Swims/ Drop out/ Flush drowning. At events like Shepperton or HPP swimmers regularly take long swims. At Shepperton all the way to the rowing club, at HPP 300/400 metres down stream. This has several possible outcomes: some of the worst include a paddler taking a long swim and suffering flush drowning or secondary drowning.

We need to keep some sense of perspective here. Long swims in the terms of a slalom course are not anything like the swim you would need to experience to be in danger of flush drowning. Believe me, I have experienced both and they are in different leagues. A swim across to the rowing club at Shepperton is not life threatening or even scary.

While agreeing that more could be done, especially in the training of the paddlers, I think your last paragraph is unnecessarily sensationalist. I am not saying that there aren't dangers in our sport, but on the whole it is very safe. Over the years I have seen some scary situations, paddlers trapped in their boat by their "Big Boy" spraydeck (I bet there's not many remember those) and some nasty pins where the paddler has been trapped in the boat while it folded around them, but they were always rescued before things became truly life threatening. There have been a couple of exceptions, one of which is why we don't race at Llangollen Town any longer. A sensible approach is to be realistic in the assessment of the risk and to make sure that there is a plan when things get out of hand. The only courses where I think that there is any real danger are at Lee Valley (a pin on the bollards could turn nasty), Grandtully (the infamous boat breaker rock), the Graveyard on the Tryweryn (risk of pin or broach on a mid-stream rock) and the Washburn (a swim could be very long, or worse if someone can't get out of their boat).

[boatmum]

A wee rant

Slalom Canoeing is an assumed risk sport. Happily it is rare for serious acidents to happen, but when they do they can be catastrophic. So to me it makes total sense to ensure that if you are a paddler or a parent of a paddler you make sure that you/your offspring has the proper training to be able to get out of the most likely risk situations. If you dont know much about canoeing then there are oodles of experienced people you can ask. and if too shy to ask, there are heaps of courses advertised - they dont have to be slalom specific! and presumably your club can point you in the right direction too.

For me a standout moment was at a Div 1 race at Tully when one mother looked at the water and said oh I hope (xxx paddler name) doesnt fall out because they cant swim! Tully was fairly high that time - takes your breath away!

[The Throwline Guy]

Dee:
Singling out Shepperton was never my intention; it was just an example and the event that inspired the tread. As I stated the issue is across the whole sport.

I am fully aware of the issues with the use of throwlines at Shepperton; I was using one at the race. Placing throwlines by the top of the weir (where they were) seems more of a token gesture than a real solution; from there they are of no use. However from the banks lower down a well thrown line can be of use.
Due to the distance involved and the wires overhead there are some swimmers that are out of reach. That said there are many in reach, during the C1W runs on Sunday I pulled 5 or 6 swimmers out from the far bank. Of these one was from the eddy at the top, one from the eddy further down and the others from the main flow. So whilst there are hindrances with how useful a throwline can be they should still be used, even if it only shortens 5 or 6 swims a day.

Please be aware that my intention was never to bash any event, especially Shepperton, the organisers do a wonderful job. As for getting volunteers, granted it’s not a perfect solution but it’s the first suggested on this thread, my aim was not to put any event down but to suggest a few ways in which safety can be improved. And if you tried asking for volunteers you might be surprised by the responses.
As for ‘dumping more work on the organisers’, the work load is not much more and I'm sure it could be delegated to a club member if needed, and who else is supposed to organise it?

As for unofficial practice, my understanding is that it is exactly that, and not something the organisers should have to worry about, someone getting on the water in this period should be able to look after themselves or have their own safety in place (Prime example is Llansysul that take plastic boats on during their practice).

As for Tully I'm unaware of an incident there (I've not been in slalom for long) so if that comment is upsetting, I do apologise, I do not intend on putting anyone out by this.

In this case paddler’s etiquette is only a small part of a larger issue, there is a safety issue so as oppose to just moaning about my aim was to be productive and suggest some ideas for solutions.

[The Throwline Guy]

Dave:

Yes flush drowning is highly unlikely but what’s not is secondary drowning or a young paddler being put off. A swim in that water then across to the boat shed may not be scary for you; however for a child who doesn't paddle outside slalom, this can be very scary. As can it be scary for the parent with very little paddling knowledge watching their kid do a little down time followed by a 2 minuet swim, by which time they may well be hypothermic (granted that’s mostly a different issue of dressing appropriately)

Boatmum:

Yes slalom is an assumed risk sport but does that mean we shouldn't do all we can to look after people?
As regards to paddlers and their parents, I totally agree. The knowledge deficit seen sometimes is scary; often parents don’t know who to ask or what to ask. More likely they don’t know what to ask; if they don’t know something, they probably are not aware they don’t know.
As mentioned rescue skills, self-rescue and swimming in moving water are often parts of a slalom paddlers training that is overlooked.

Steve:

I completely agree that paddlers ignoring the rules should be punished by the rules. There may be some paddlers unaware that the rules require you to go to the aid of a swimmer on the course near yourself (ignoring the moral side of this situation). Yes paddlers should read and be aware of the rules, but perhaps adding to signs going up something alluding to this could be a good course of action? I liked the suggestion someone made about giving one warning and keeping track of this then thereafter disqualifying people.

[BaldockBabe]

A wee rant

Slalom Canoeing is an assumed risk sport. Happily it is rare for serious acidents to happen, but when they do they can be catastrophic. So to me it makes total sense to ensure that if you are a paddler or a parent of a paddler you make sure that you/your offspring has the proper training to be able to get out of the most likely risk situations. If you dont know much about canoeing then there are oodles of experienced people you can ask. and if too shy to ask, there are heaps of courses advertised - they dont have to be slalom specific! and presumably your club can point you in the right direction too.

I back you 101% on this one!

There may be some paddlers unaware that the rules require you to go to the aid of a swimmer on the course near yourself (ignoring the moral side of this situation). Yes paddlers should read and be aware of the rules, but perhaps adding to signs going up something alluding to this could be a good course of action? I liked the suggestion someone made about giving one warning and keeping track of this then thereafter disqualifying people.


- As mentioned above teaching kids the skills they need to rescue is important. However (I don't paddle C1) but I've been told its exceptionally hard to rescue from a C1 and this is from a 20yr old who is an effective creek paddler and can rescue well. Imagine how hard it could be for a couple of 12 yr old girls in C1's? How to fix it? 1, teach kids how to swim in moving water and self rescue, so they can be an effective part of their rescue. 2, effective rescue teams, throwlines and plastic boats.

Errr, when you are involved in sport you should know the rules as Sharapova found out to her detriment last week. The yearbook is sent to EVERY ranked paddler so there is NO excuse for anyone with a bib to not know the rules. Furthermore, the paddler at Shepperton has a British Canoeing coach who knows the rules as their paddlers have been pulled up for it before.

I have carried a rescue in a C1 at slalom and I have assisted with a rescue from my plastic boaty on a river in France both without ever touching or going near the paddler. How? Talking (as skill I am good at). I am not good enough in my C1 to rescue on moving water but I am able to identify safe areas and verbally guide a swimmer to them. In the plastic boat I was not able to get out of my boat without losing the only downriver person who would have been able to rescue if the pinned party swam. I therefore stayed in my boat and advised her at all times what was going on, who was rescuing her and keeping her calm. If I had not done so she would have attempted a self rescue and ended up swimming. Thus, you do not always need to be able to physically help to be a valuable part of a rescue. Actually, when lifeguarding I was ALWAYS told that going in yourself was the last resort.

As for kit - I would NEVER put myself in danger to rescue kit. I do not care how much your boat is I am not going to rescue it if I do not feel it is safe to do so. If you boat does not have airbags in it I will not rescue it even if it is safe to do so.

[The Throwline Guy]

I 100% agree that everyone should know the rules, I said that before. I'm not condoning it ignorance, what I am saying is reinforcing these rules might not be a bad thing. Whilst I praise your evidently good rescue skills, not everyone has them. I'm not going through it again but as I laid out in my first post, paddlers and their coaches have a responsibility to teach these kids these skill and yes that should be extended to understanding the rules (I bet they all know the half head rules) and moral/respectful behaviour.

What I'm doing is suggesting solutions, you all are perfectly happy complaining about the issue but none of you are suggesting any solutions.
All I have done is suggest some possible solutions, yes some of them are not perfect, yes there are other options, etc etc.. can we not use this forum to develop ideas and solutions rather than just moaning about the problem? It would be a far better use of our time and far more productive for moving our sport forwards.

[davebrads]

Yes flush drowning is highly unlikely but what’s not is secondary drowning

That doesn't appear to be true. Secondary drowning is very rare - the figures are that 1 - 2% of drownings are secondary drowning, and since drowning is pretty rare anyway we are talking very small risks. I have only heard once of a paddler suffering from secondary drowning, this was after a capsize on a lake, and from what I can see it appears to affect young children far more than adolescents or adults. We must maintain a sense of perspective, something that is sadly lacking in today's litigious world.

or a young paddler being put off

More likely, but really I think that is only fair that the organiser can assume that all the competitors are prepared for the race that they have entered. This is very difficult, some kids are completely oblivious and others get totally stressed, and I don't see how an organiser in charge of an event of up to 200 paddlers can possibly account for the behavioural differences between the paddlers. I would throw the onus back on the parents and coaches of the paddlers to make sure that they are ready before they enter a race.

It would be worth educating parents as to what to expect at a slalom race. Their kids are taking part in an assumed risk sport, and sometimes things will go wrong, I have often seen parents with over optimistic views of what rescue facilities can be provided with a limited number of volunteers, and this is often combined with a heightened judgement of the actual danger their child is facing, and the result is a hysterical parent which doesn't help those trying to sort things out.

[BaldockBabe]

My ideal solution? Parents getting involved to help in the sport whether by becoming qualified judges/ rescue/ timing/ organisers. There are some amazing parents out there that do some or all of the above but there are far more that do nothing.

If I were a parent that had a child taking part in a sport such as canoeing/ kayaking I would ensure that I was in a position to assist in the rescue of my child (or anyone elses) that was in difficulty. In reality the competition itself is very limited water time for each paddler (maybe 30 mins with warm up, race, cool down). I am sure those parents spend hours each week on the riverside whilst their child is either practicing or training. What do they expect to happen then? Do the magic water faeries appear at training sessions but not at events, or perhaps the unicorns gallop to the rescue? Maybe rather than gossiping whilst holding cups of tea/ coffee they could be contributing to the sport that otherwise gives so much to their offspring?

This is another bugbear of mine as parents of certain groups of individuals (who are perceived to benefit far more than others) are the ones that are least likely to contribute to the collective than others.

[Dee]

What I'm doing is suggesting solutions, you all are perfectly happy complaining about the issue but none of you are suggesting any solutions.
All I have done is suggest some possible solutions, yes some of them are not perfect, yes there are other options, etc etc.. can we not use this forum to develop ideas and solutions rather than just moaning about the problem? It would be a far better use of our time and far more productive for moving our sport forwards.

I disagree, other people have put forward solutions, namely educating paddlers and their parents.
What isn't quite clear is how we achieve this - not all paddlers have regular coaches and even those that do may need a coach with a different mindset.

What I, and some others, disagree with is the suggestion of adding more to the organisers work load.

I would also note here that I have contacted the clubs with the greatest number of offending paddlers from Shepperton and had a really positive response with a promise to try and educate parents and offspring. Personally I think this is a better solution than pandering to the nanny state.

And if you tried asking for volunteers you might be surprised by the responses.

I asked for volunteers multiple times during the day, and the response was virtually zilch. This might surprise you, but it is the norm in my experience so doesn't surprise me at all.

As for ‘dumping more work on the organisers’, the work load is not much more and I'm sure it could be delegated to a club member if needed, and who else is supposed to organise it?

Organisers already do consider safety - don't underestimate how much effort and time goes into writing and reviewing risk assessment, but we, quite reasonably in my opinion, expect paddlers to do their bit and act with courtesy to others. By all means feel free to organise a team for providing bank side safety at Shepperton next year, if you are offering to do this you would be most welcome (however I write that it seems sarcastic and is not meant to be!), feel free to email me with your offer nearer the time, but do bear in mind that every volunteer I can lay my hands on is already heavily committed.

On each day of the race (ignoring the timing team and ignoring section judges and chief judge), I estimate we need approximately 150hours of volunteer work! This ignores any pre or post race efforts. At Sheppy we have an entry limit of 150, so basically that is 1 hr of volunteer work on the day for every single entry. I already delegate roles right, left, and centre but I just don't have anyone else to delegate to. And bear in mind that, just like traffic safety, official practice starter, finish, on-water safety, canteen, control, I can't safely allocate unknown youngsters to bank side safety roles.

My ideal solution? Parents getting involved to help in the sport whether by becoming qualified judges/ rescue/ timing/ organisers. There are some amazing parents out there that do some or all of the above but there are far more that do nothing.

And ironically many of those who "DO", no longer have children in the sport, or in some cases never did.

Do the magic water faeries appear at training sessions but not at events, or perhaps the unicorns gallop to the rescue?

.. really I think that is only fair that the organiser can assume that all the competitors are prepared for the race that they have entered. .......I would throw the onus back on the parents and coaches of the paddlers to make sure that they are ready before they enter a race.

I agree, unfortunately there are a significant number of paddlers that turn up, take one look (or maybe two) at Shepperton water and don't race; sometimes demanding a refund (which they don't get). This is mainly div 2s at the div 1/2, but occasionally it is div 1s.

....the paddler at Shepperton has a British Canoeing coach who knows the rules as their paddlers have been pulled up for it before......

Perhaps a useful add to the rule book would be to require coaches to redo their coaching qualifications if they are caught in flagarent breach. Particularly in the case of any paid coaches (don't know if this one is paid or not)

[jjayes]

It may be better to amend the rules to have more people stay on the water at the finish particularly when multiple rescues may be required. I also think it is a big ask to have just finished a slalom run possibly less than sixty seconds ago and then make the best decisions to perform an effective rescue. I also have concerns about whether some paddlers are capable of performing such rescues. If more paddlers were required to stay on the water then it would at least up the odds for any paddlers in trouble.

I have said it before, but air bags in a slalom boat really are one of the biggest safety aids you can have both in terms of allowing easier rescue and also aiding strength to the boat if a wrap on a rock or obstacle occurs. They are not expensive at all and may also help the boat be a lot less damaged should it carry on down the river on its own.

[djberriman]

I think you'll find most considerate paddlers hang about for a bit longer than required, but there are many who are already half out of their boat or sat in an eddy on a beach with their back to the river before the 2nd competitor has reached the finish line.

I'm surprised people want to get straight off away and that coaches or parents might encourage it, surely they should be doing a cool down paddle anyway? That must last for longer than 2 minutes surely?

The rules do allow the organiser to specify more than 2 should stay on the water and some events do specify more.

Often the problem is some paddlers will count more than 2 still on the water and get off, not realising those other paddlers could get off or paddle down river at any moment as they are no longer obliged to stay.

Most events do not however have a sign staying where paddlers should stay which is actually a requirement in the rules. This can often mean paddlers are not in the correct place. I've started using a line across the river at Howsham to show the area in which paddlers must stay so they don't wonder off.

[Dee]

Most events do not however have a sign staying where paddlers should stay which is actually a requirement in the rules.......

I don't think this requirement is strictly true

UK C19.8 After their run a Competitor MUST stay in their boat within
sight of the finisher, or (if defined) within a clearly indicated
distance from the finish, until the next, and next but one
Competitor has finished, in case they are called upon to act
as rescue boat, UNLESS the Organiser, having made other
rescue arrangements, has specifically indicated that this is
not required or the paddler has arranged an alternate to
provide this safety cover. This regulation applies equally to
team events. Failure to comply with this rule will result in
disqualification from that run (DSQ-R).

[Toomuchtooyoung]

Ok so Im not an expert on slalom and have never organised a race, but Ive written tons of risk assessments. The use of the last competitors to provide safety should be used flexibly by organisers and written in the RA, how many are required to stay on, where they should wait and what are the controls - how are you going to ensure it happens, signage, clearly marked wait points and disqualification for those who don't comply. I cant imagine a risk assessment which states that safety is provided by the last 2 paddlers and the control is, that everyone knows that is the rule, being sufficient.
In terms of volunteers, Im attending a lot of races for the first time, I dont know who the organiser is, if they need volunteers, and what jobs need doing which Im capable of. Stick a note up, if I know what needs doing I know I can help. Its bad enough asking for help in a shop to find out 'I dont work here', without having to chase down the person in charge. Its tough I know youd rather have people you know, who know what needs doing, than a newbie who needs direction, but I'll give it a go.

[James Hastings]

Leaving aside other more general safety issues raised in this thread, the solution to the original post seems very simple to me. Enforce the rules and disqualify paddlers if they don't abide by them. If you aren't prepared to use the sanctions available, then don't be surprised if the rules get flouted.