Scratch C2s

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
Dee
Posts: 1250
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Scratch C2s

Post by Dee » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:37 pm

I have, after a certain amount of hair pulling, added some functionality to allow scratch C2 pairs to enter online whether they are both registered as individual paddlers or not.

At the moment the ageCategory just defaults to Senior - I will come back to that and I'm going to admit that I probably haven't managed to test every edge case in terms of the procedure for adding a new pairing, so if you find a bug let me know.

That aside I have a query......

The idea behind scratch C2s, I think, was really that they were for on-the-day entries, to encourage lower division paddlers to have a go. In practise I think scratch C2s have entered by post in advance, hence I've acquiesced to the request to allow online entries.

However, as things stand at the moment I have scratch C2s entering as paddle-ups in anything other than Open. The effect of this is that scratch C2s entering a div 3, div 2, div 3/4 or div 2/3 competition will go onto a waiting list (if they try to enter more than 4weeks before).

I think that this is in the spirit of scratch C2s, ie if they are really trying to enter that far in advance they probably should be getting ranked! At lower divisions entries also come in later so unlikely to be an issue

Where it will have an impact is Div 2 races that fill up and places like Cardington who sometimes reach the limit. Again I think that in the spirit of the rules it is right that scratch C2s should take a lower priority than ranking paddlers competing for points.

Does anyone have an opinion on this:
  • Am I being fair in my interpretation?
  • Is this approach likely to cause any issues?
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Patrick O'Hara
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 1:07 pm
Location: Bedford

Re: Scratch C2s

Post by Patrick O'Hara » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:09 am

Great to hear scratch C2s can now be entered online, one less thing for organisers to have to deal with.

I believe scratch C2s should get confirmed entries, not be placed on a waiting list. I see no real difference between a scratch C2 and a Div 4 entry which we would accept straight away. If a Div 3 K1 paddler wants to enter Div 4 C1 it would be accepted so why shouldn’t 2 ranked paddlers enter a scratch C2 and get it accepted.

Dee
Posts: 1250
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Scratch C2s

Post by Dee » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:30 am

I think the key difference is that your K1 paddler is entering div 4 C1 in order to get promoted and get a bib. A C2 pairing can just send off for ranking. There is no such thing as a div 4 C2 or a need to get promoted.

In practice, when is the earliest that scratch pairs start to enter?

My guess is that this year (now the C2 system is more established) those that paddle regularly-ish will be ranked, so scratch pairs won’t enter until late on

Part of my thinking is also about encouraging C2 pairs to get ranked ASAP to make it easier for ranking compilers

FWIW I had C2 scratch pairs down as paddleups last year too, which would have meant that organisers would not have been able to accept C2 postal entries until 4 weeks before and no one said anything. :P
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

WindsorCC
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:22 pm

Re: Scratch C2s

Post by WindsorCC » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:57 am

I think that scratch C2 crews should be lower priority than all ranking paddlers, including Div 4.

Dee as you say, the original intent was to encourage casual pairings who may just want to do one race, but not take it particularly seriously. It would be a shame if scratch crews then meant that paddlers going for ranking weren't able to get a race, which is quite likely at your races Patrick where there are usually quite a lot of C2s squeezing themselves down the course ;)

Me and Ethan are ranked and so can get an entry in in advance, but where our other boys have done scratch it was just an extra 'nice to have' race on top of their ranking runs, which I suspect is the case with most of the scratch crews.

If it's important for someone to get a race and they want to enter in advance, it'll only take a few days to get a bib number and then they can get their entry in.

JBS
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:01 pm

Re: Scratch C2s

Post by JBS » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:46 am

Although it is a bit of a pain to actually get a bib for just the odd C2 race. Particularly where a family may already have multiple bibs like mine. Last season we had bibs for 2xK1W,2xK1M,1xC1W,1xC2 and 1xVet. So I didn't bother getting a bib for the occassional race pairing of my wife and I or when I raced with one of my other kids...

Dee
Posts: 1250
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Scratch C2s

Post by Dee » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:10 am

@JBS

How far ahead of the race would you put in your scratch C2 entry?

(and how do you get 4 kayaks, 2 canadians and a C2 on the car roof (not to mention the vet) :) )
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: Scratch C2s

Post by JimW » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:35 am

JBS has a van, and only 1 C1 now ;)
(Seriously I hope you did find it!)

The term 'Scratch entry' itself implies it is an on the day decision - when tournaments have odd numbers of teams they often ask around on the day to form a scratch team from other teams subs or officials to make the format work, a scratch C2 crew to me is one that only decides on the day or too close to the day to get a bib.

What about championship events? What if a couple paddlers plan at the start of the year to enter as a C2 in say the J14 champs, but don't intend to race together in C2 at any other point in the year, shouldn't we be allowing them to enter as early as they want? Of course, in that situation the C2 should be an open entry anyway like other champs entries from different divisions.

Hang on though - didn't we just change the rules for paddle ups?
Don't PUs now get entries based on the percentile within their own division at the priority deadline?
How are you going to calculate that for scratch C2s? They won't have a percentile (or 100%) so will never get an entry.
I think they need to be Open entries don't they?

paddlerparent
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:52 pm

Re: Scratch C2s

Post by paddlerparent » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:47 am

Dee wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:37 pm

However, as things stand at the moment I have scratch C2s entering as paddle-ups in anything other than Open. The effect of this is that scratch C2s entering a div 3, div 2, div 3/4 or div 2/3 competition will go onto a waiting list (if they try to enter more than 4weeks before).

I think that this is in the spirit of scratch C2s, ie if they are really trying to enter that far in advance they probably should be getting ranked! At lower divisions entries also come in later so unlikely to be an issue

Where it will have an impact is Div 2 races that fill up and places like Cardington who sometimes reach the limit. Again I think that in the spirit of the rules it is right that scratch C2s should take a lower priority than ranking paddlers competing for points.
I totally agree, Scratch C2 is effectively paddle up; & great job


:)

Dee
Posts: 1250
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Scratch C2s

Post by Dee » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:29 pm

JimW wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:35 am
Hang on though - didn't we just change the rules for paddle ups?
Don't PUs now get entries based on the percentile within their own division at the priority deadline?
How are you going to calculate that for scratch C2s? They won't have a percentile (or 100%) so will never get an entry.
I think they need to be Open entries don't they?
Scratch C2s will default to 100% percentile.
However scratch C2s are not eligible to enter anything above a div 2, so realistically the waiting list order will rarely be significant.
AFAIK the only lower division comp that was over subscribed last year was Cardington Div 2/3/4. And as Paul said it would be a shame if scratch crews pushed out paddlers going for ranking.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Dee
Posts: 1250
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Scratch C2s

Post by Dee » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:43 pm

PS waiting list sort process now pretty complex:

firstly the date on which paddlers were eligible to enter (effectively putting host paddlers before paddle-ups)
then the rankingPercentile for those entries that pre-registered before the open date
then order of entry (using promotionDate to override actual received date in the case of promotees who entered ahead of time)

The result is I think what we expect to see. Hard to thoroughly test though without plenty of real life data which I just haven't got time to create, but I am sure an irate paddler will be in touch if I get it wrong. :twisted:

That reminds me need to add to the todo list to prompt organisers to offer places to all paddle-ups on same percentile.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: Scratch C2s

Post by JimW » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:57 pm

Actually, that is fair enough - if truly a scratch entry they would only get it if there was space on the day.

JBS
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:01 pm

Re: Scratch C2s

Post by JBS » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:16 am

Dee, I was thinking specifically of Cardington for myself (where I know Patrick appreciates me turning up with what he descibes as "a reserve interclubs team all made up of one family")
Jim, that was a very witty comment, but unfortunately it's gone......I will sort something out though so that I can get some Vet races in.

JimW
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: Scratch C2s

Post by JimW » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:50 am

Joel that's terrible - If you are going to be at some of the same races as me before you get something sorted let me know and you can borrow my boat, I'm staying in div 2 in C1 this year so will usually be racing at a different time to vets, and only paddling K1 in vets at div 1 and Prem so just need to make sure I have the C1 with me.

Steve Holmes
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon May 21, 2018 11:05 am

Re: Scratch C2s

Post by Steve Holmes » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:57 am

Sorry to hear it Joel, I had my fingers crossed it would turn up.
I had something truly amazing to add about scratch C2s, but my A level mock marking mind is completely addled!

JBS
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:01 pm

Re: Scratch C2s

Post by JBS » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:04 am

Thanks. It's entirely my own fault so no need to feel bad.

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