ACM Motion - Electronic Results

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:47 pm

One of the problems with slalom is we have a vast amount of people with bright ideas, some workable some perhaps not - however there are very few volunteers actually willing to put in the time and effort needed to make it possible to even consider the ideas, or those that do don't necessarily have the required skills!

I think many people coming up with ideas on this forum do contribute to the sport in other ways and are therefore already putting in time and effort. But none of us have time to do everything.

My understanding was that we paid someone to develop the prem timing system and I just though that, with the benefit of hindsight, extending the brief (and the budget) could have been considered as options.

One option might be to find a bright A level computing student or even Computer Science Degree Student who needs to do a project for their exams. (Would have been a good one for Forbes but he's done his A level now). We would then need to assemble a small group to act as users, but this would be much less onerous in terms of commitment and wouldn't require computing skills from our side just an understanding of the ranking system and points calculations.

We'd have to define a manageable project, but a password controlled internet application to allow uploading of ranked paddlers at start of year, provisional results by organisers, and confirmation of results by ranking officers post checking, with points calculation, discrepancy notification, and ranking calculation should be achievable. We might have to pay for hosting.

This wouldn't need to be a paddler or could be anybody with need of a project.

Might be worth approaching Nottm Univ for example. Probaly better if initial approach came from committee though.

Bus Driver · Post by **Bus Driver** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:39 pm

Dee wrote:My understanding was that we paid someone to develop the prem timing system and I just though that, with the benefit of hindsight, extending the brief (and the budget) could have been considered as options.

Dee,

I don't know where you or anyone else has got this information from but you are very wrong!

I am not and have not been paid anything to research, design, build and test the new timing system (apart from some out of pocket expences). As with most other people, Myself and Sue both have full time jobs and spend an awfull lot of our very limited spare time developing the system. Factually incorrect statements such as yours really get up my nose.

I can quite see where Anne is coming from and also appreciate what you are saying, unfortunately, the proof of the pudding is that when as a committee we ask for help it is generally, only ever the same people that come forward.

Steve Bright

PeterC · Post by **PeterC** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:51 pm

Thanks Dee.

Nick does already produce an electronic list in Excel of all competitors in the UK (including Div 4) including bib numbers. This is available on the Bib tab on the web site and I have found it hugely helpful to use as a automated lookup as an organiser. Thanks Nick! It would appear that not everyone has realised this is available. Unfortunately it is only the position at the end of last season but is still excellent value.

The timing system is only for Prem and Div 1 at the moment and likely to stay so. There are more problems in my experience with the lower divisions not knowing where they are and what they need to do.

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:44 pm

Steve

Sorry - I obviously misunderstood about the system development, maybe when I've heard people talking about money/budgets for the system they were referring to the cost of the hardware? If someone donated that then please shout!

Thank you for you hard work on the system! Hope I'm forgiven

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:01 pm

PeterC

Thanks for the info. I was aware that the list was there, but the ages only correspond to the previous year, so there is an immediate issue there. Also what I had in mind is more automated. I still don't feel that organisers should be required to check bib numbers.

One option is to get tough and not accept competitors without bibs, but I wouldn't really want to do this!

Mark Shaw · Post by **Mark Shaw** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:33 pm

OK - who fancies being part of an 'out of season' project team to come up with some practical options for trialling next season?

It would appear that we already have enough computing skills, although we will need to see how far these stretch in terms of detailed knowledge. Lets start small with some enhanced Excel skills and then see if we can move on to MySQL or something similar.

I think we already have a willing group of volunteers to specify the requirements and act as testers. We might have to go round a few times before we get what we want (iterative development) but this is how we function as human beings most effectively.

I'm certain that England can find some money to help pay any additional hosting costs if these are needed. I suspect though that if we get it right then we aren't talking about any additional data - just better use of what we already gather.

Lastly, we need a small number of ACM Motions to pave the way. The first is for electronic results to be available 'X' days after a slalom event. The second is permission from every paddler who enters an event for their details to be held on a computer system and processed for the benefit of the sport (or some similar wording). There might be a third but my brain has lost its train of thought.

Anyone keen to join in the project?

There is a downside of course. With the push to manage the rankings electronically we might have some casualties in the form of ranking compilers who do not want to embrace the modern computer. If this became essential then we would need some volunteers to take on what is a very crucial role in our sport - a role that very rarely receives any recognition but without it our sport wouldn't function.

Has anyone considered this consequence?

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:09 pm

Mark - I'm happy to be on a working party for identifying a process and for specifying as long as were not trying to meet somewhere too far North!

If we can get a good working system then it should reduce time it takes to check rankings and will reduce most peoples work loads. The most time consuming activity will be comparing the cards with the results. This could be done without a computer but someone would still have to carry out other checks. I'm not sure that we should hold up genuine progress (and make everything harder work for everyone else). I don't think this is going to be instantaneous though.

Mark Shaw · Post by **Mark Shaw** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:13 pm

Dee - we are going to have to run this 'project' remotely as we have volunteers from both ends of the UK. It might be a true test of whether we can make a system work, as transfer of data either via email or directly entered to a web site is going to be key.

Nothing is ever instantaneous. Change takes time - especially when human beings are involved, as people have to accept that change is for the better. We will have to prove beyond doubt that any changes we propose are for the benefit of the sport which will entail running pilot schemes and the like before any real change can take place.

However, this doesn't stop us putting together a plan of action that sees small incremental change that eventually results in the larger change that some see as inevitable.

If we only improve on the tools provided to slalom organisers to produce accurate results in electronic format, plus an option to upload results electronically, then I think we will have made a good start.

An official spreadsheet that calculates the points for each class correctly would be a good starting point, rather than numerous home-grown examples and ancient software programs. If we add in the ability to input an up to date official bib list with correct club details and dates of birth then I think this will be a significant step forward.

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 am

I agree with Mark on this, change (especially in a volunteer environment) is not instantenous nor should it be and that incremental change is they way forward. Many small steps will be much easier to implement and get accepted that one large step. Most of what is already done (and unseen) by the many volunteers is very good, all we need to do is improve on that good practice.

Answering some of Nicks concerns.

CSV is basically a spreadsheet so I don't see the issue with him accepting it. It can be opened in any spreadsheet program on any platform. No compatibility issues. It can also be imported into a database easily. A quick 30 second or so glance of the data would allow it to be updated with column headers that would then allow a fairly basic import program to load the data. The data would simply be an export of whatever data the organiser normally publishes. I did not define the layout as that would be too restrictive in the short term. Perhaps that point was missed.

My intention was to be able to get a copy of the data so that I could load it into a database and learn what Nick probably already knows - that there will be issues with some of the data (missing bibs, wrong numbers, misspelt names, incorrect points etc). I had hoped to use the data to do some analysis and come up with some recommendations from what I learn.

Clearly those outside the roles of bib officers, ranking officers and Nicks role no little of what goes on and can only guess. Thus we might be talking out of turn, ill advised, or simply have no idea. We need them to share their knowledge with us so we can move any of this forward.

The likely unique key (I think) is the paddlers bcu number + class. The bcu no. rarely changes and it should follow the paddler through his/her life. I believe all paddlers are required to have a competitive bcu membership. I'll have to check the rule book on this - I don't have one one on hand. C2's would have two numbers (one per paddler). This information isn't currently recorded in results but that might be a recommendation of any project and time would need to be allowed for competition systems to be updated, providing downloadable data would help with this as there would be no need to key in bcu numbers and thus less errors.

Whatever systems is implemented there will be a need to allow for manual overrides/amendments where data is missing or incorrect. Thus ranking officers may for instance end up using an online system to vet (and amend) each set of results before they are officially accepted. Such decisions can however only be made as the result of a suitable project.

As for Nick's concern re div 4's - its a very valid point I had missed (hence the need for debate) and these can easily be left out of the electronic requirements as they do not produce ranking points. The paddlers first hit on the database would be when they become a ranked paddler in Div 3.

I hope everyone now understands my thoughts on data requirements. Having thought about this over the weekend I am not going to put forward this motion. Rather I hope that any project that does kick off can simply request that all organisers provide this information so we can do the required processing and project work. I don't think volunteers time should be spent rekeying data so that it can be used, but perhaps we will have to do that and perhaps someone will volunteer to undertake that role.

I would be happy to join any project providing the majority of it can be done remotely. For those who do not know me my roles over the last 25 years (mainly as a contractor/consulant) have covered technical/system programming, data loading/extraction/integration, systems integration, database development/management (mysql and oracle), data centre management and 'lights out' computing, mainly in 24x7 envionments.

I also have plenty of spare computing and hosting capacity within my online business that I would be happy to contribute and utilise as part of any project.

The debate has been useful. Thanks to all who have contributed. I hope we can move forward with this.

Bus Driver · Post by **Bus Driver** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:32 am

This thread has now gone beyond the initial post by Duncan and I can see the sence in what is being said here.

A couple of points that you may wish to bear in mind while progressing though.

1. Do not try to re-invent the wheel, an accurate points calculating spreadsheet already exists we export from the timing system to it and provide the organiser with the points (not our job really but organisers seem to appriciate it).

2. Before going too far, someone will need to take advice re the data protection act and what data we can hold and circulate especially as the majority of slalom paddlers are under 18

3. As this would have to be done under the name of BCU Slalom, then the committee would also need to take advice as that is where the buck stops.

Not trying to spray any kind of liquid on any form of fireworks but just be very careful, as i am sure you know, data and its safe keeping is a nightmare.

The ranking lists as provided by Nick are as accurate as they can be and normally results are posted within a couple of days. If you start to put hard and fast timescales to things there are occassions when these can't be met. Remember, all races are ran by volunteers and do the best for the paddlers that we can, within the time constraints that we have.

Steve Bright

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:18 am

Bus Driver's input is just the sort of input that is needed.

The data we require should not reveal personal information (other than name and possibly DOB) and should already be covered by the bcu/slalom committee.

In addition the fact it is stored on computer/computerised does not add any real additional requirements as any/all paperwork is also covered by the data protection act to my knowledge.

It is however an important point and one that needs to be addressed. As the information is already public domain (on Nicks web site and posted to anyone who wants it) I don't see any great issue.

If the project is setup under the BCU slalom committee I would hope there should not be any data protection issues.

The ACT is often misused and over quoted as an excuse.

Reinventing the wheel is the very thing I wish to avoid. The fact a spreadsheet exists is great news and news to me BUT I assume this only covers higher ranking events where the timing team are in attendance. I would guess (hopefully without offending anyone) that mistakes tend to happen at lower level events as WE run them less frequently using less accurate systems and relying on our interpretation of the rule book, probably with less resources and with less experienced volunteers (anyone we can get!).

Edited - removed point - DB.

Nick Penfold · Post by **Nick Penfold** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:23 pm

"Him" here.

"CSV is basically a spreadsheet so I don't see the issue with him accepting it." DJ, I know exactly what a CSV file is. Yes, it opens in any spreadsheet - all one font size, all columns one width, headings that spread over multiple columns wrecked, nothing in bold. Then you have to format it. The "issue" is that I'm not prepared to do that, so until there is a database that accepts it and outputs something acceptable it's not a good idea. CSV files may well be part of an overall solution, as and when there is a database to upload to, but like MySQL, PHP and so it's part of the technical solution. For goodness sake let's define what we want to do first and get to the how stuff later.

Now to some of the practical problems.

Especially in Div 3, and to some extent in Div 2, a lot of paddlers have no bibs. Others race with strange pirate ones (last year’s?). Even in top divisions new promotees may not yet have bibs. If BCU (ECA, WCA, SCA) number is to be used as key, is it unique? Family memberships? Possible duplication of numbers (WCA and SCA, quite likely and the rule is, if it might, it will). Implications of C2s pairing up with several others at different events, or even at the same event? Who enters this number – the race organiser? Are you kidding? So some sort of dowload is necessary. Does a source exist?

There are errors in results, especially from lower divisions - most commonly totalling up of penalties. Currently Ranking Compilers audit printed results against cards. So there would have to be a correction function, and somebody would have to input the corrections.

A suggestion: start with just Prem and Div 1, and expand to Div 2 and 3 later.

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:31 am

Sorry Nick didn't mean to be rude that was a bit of a typo.

I now understand your point of view re the csv's. I hadn't realised the problems it would cause you. Guess I was only looking at it from one point of view. Ho Hum.

It looks like you have even more to deal with than I had realised which is why I was hoping I could get the files as csv and do some analysis thus taking the burden off someone who is already very busy keeping the current results system updated.

Hadn't thought about EUA/WCA/SCA so thats another good point. Not sure if they are unique. As far as I know each member in a family has a seperate number. Perhaps some one can clarify that one!

I'm not sure a download exists for bcu numbers currently - but again perhaps it does and I've never heard of it. I think its again a 'data protection' issue but something like that would be useful for other aspects of the sport where bcu numbers need to be checked.

The other option I could think of is for bib officers to record them when they issue a bib and pass them on. Thus you would have the name, club, class etc and bcu number(s).

Paddlers who paddle without bibs would still cause an issue but probably no more than they do now, at least you might have a bcu number to identify them by if nothing else! One slight issue I can think of already is people who join on the day as they won't have a number for a while. Nothings perfect!

PeterC · Post by **PeterC** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:02 pm

Happy to be involved in trying to take this forward.

As to the DPA - something I have to live with professionally on a daily basis. As I understand it the collection and presentation of information that is in the public domain does not require registration. However as soon as you move past this point registration is required and what we should not do is put personal information into the public domain. Registration requires that you show why data is collected and used. Thus anything that is in published results is fair game.

Date of Birth however is not and I would caution against its use or indeed collection. I do not keep this but simply use it to check from the entry card what age grouping they should be in. However it would be very useful to be able to have age grouping and have some way of knowing when paddlers move from one to the other. It is possible to surmise this for a number of paddlers by using results published in previous years or old bib lists and thus could again be considered to be in the public domain.

Unfortunately the membership numbers are not unique and are shared in families at least in Scotland so is not suitable as a prime key.

The spreadsheet used by the timing team has been tested and seems to be good at least for Div 1 and Prem. There may need to be tweaks for the different multiplier for lower division C2's and indeed if the arrangements change for the Pink C1's - as I think they should! I don't know whether it works for Div 4 promotions. Steve may be able to answer these?

The nightmare as an organiser is the bib number and perhaps the most important element is that we find some acceptable way of updating a bib list as the season progresses. This then would be the unique key to identity and allocation of points and indeed should appear on cards even if they actually race in a different bib number.

I would argue for meetings North of Hadrians Wall but expect no support for this from anybody and thus needs to be virtual. One way to achieve this would be to set up an automated mailbox mailing list. I can do this if no other suggestions. It would allow sharing of documents, spreadsheets etc.

Mark Shaw · Post by **Mark Shaw** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:29 pm

I think it is probably time to take this discussion offline.

The next BCU Slalom Committee meeting is on Saturday 31st October. Hopefully this meeting will sanction the creation of a working party to look in to what can be achieved in terms of automating the ranking system.

As already stated by Nick, we need to define what it is we want to achieve first and then find a solution to deliver it. For this we will need a number of people to assist in the definition.

I'm hoping that I can assume that all those that have been party to this debate so far will be keen to remain involved in the process. In which case I think we probably have a good sized group without it getting over large.

There have been a couple of offers on where to host the ongoing debate. Perhaps Peter and Duncan can confirm between them which they feel is most appropriate.

I will put an email together based on the contact info I have and PM anyone whose details I don't currently know.