The strategy paper has been sent to Nick, and can also be found at Strategy Paper. Note this is a Slalom Committee strategy paper, not a Proteus one, that is just a convenient home for it.
Comments on the strategy welcome.
Slalom Struture - The structure of doemstic competition
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Canadian Paddler
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Hi Colin, firstly thanks, this is a good, thought provoking paper.
Can I ask a question on:
Can we be clear on the English North/South split? For example from were I type HPP feels north, whereas Nene, Cardington, Orton Mere feel south. If you were to ask slalom paddlers from Newcastle or Truro, I suspect you would get very different answers.
So where do you think the initial line would be drawn? I think this is important, as I can see what your thinking about maximum numbers of events, however I'd also like to see MINIMUM numbers of events per region.
So for Div 2 how about ...
"We propose that the aim should a maximum of one event (single or double), and aim of a minimum of 1 event every two months, in each of the „regions‟ above per month. Overall no more than one Div2 event a week, but in different regions."
This would mean a between 5 and 9 slaloms per region, per year, and give a range from 20 to 36 Div2 events per year.
One other point, while I agree Div one should be national, I also feel it should not unduly disadvantage paddlers for their location. Therefore I'd like to see a absolute minimum of two, and a maximum of 3 Div1 per region per year.
With HPP kind of been "in the middle here", I hope you can see the importance of my first question, of these minimums for England.
Can I ask a question on:
The regional separation of events may be considered as Wales, Scotland, North of England, and South of England, this is not on strict boundaries, but can be developed to reflect the „circuits‟ that paddlers attend.
Can we be clear on the English North/South split? For example from were I type HPP feels north, whereas Nene, Cardington, Orton Mere feel south. If you were to ask slalom paddlers from Newcastle or Truro, I suspect you would get very different answers.
So where do you think the initial line would be drawn? I think this is important, as I can see what your thinking about maximum numbers of events, however I'd also like to see MINIMUM numbers of events per region.
So for Div 2 how about ...
"We propose that the aim should a maximum of one event (single or double), and aim of a minimum of 1 event every two months, in each of the „regions‟ above per month. Overall no more than one Div2 event a week, but in different regions."
This would mean a between 5 and 9 slaloms per region, per year, and give a range from 20 to 36 Div2 events per year.
One other point, while I agree Div one should be national, I also feel it should not unduly disadvantage paddlers for their location. Therefore I'd like to see a absolute minimum of two, and a maximum of 3 Div1 per region per year.
With HPP kind of been "in the middle here", I hope you can see the importance of my first question, of these minimums for England.
Andy
(D1 K1 1981, D2 C1&C2 2010)
(D1 K1 1981, D2 C1&C2 2010)
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Canadian Paddler
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Personally I am happy with an aim for minimum number of div 2s per 'area' and will take it to the committee in August, subject to the water beign sufficient standard, and not an event a month in the same location (how many times to we go to HPP?).
The div 2 regions are somewhat fuzzy, as you say it depends where you are. Newcastle paddlers being closer to Scottish events than to HPP, so are they in the 'Scottish' zone? Symonds Yat (if it comes back) is closer to Bristol than to Aberystwyth, so is it Wales or Southern England. Will be trying to get feelings on this as further development. (Nice touch mentioning Orton Mere, you know how to get my attention!) I think I can safely say Seaton Park is Scotland, Tryweryn is Wales, and North Walls is south)
Anyone like to try definitions? Or do I take my life in my hands again and just cut up the map, not really knowing how far paddlers in Harrogate will travel for a div 2? I remember how far I went as a Bristol Div 2, and will go now as a Peterborough div 2, but I may be exceptional, (Peterborough or Bristol I went/go to Grandtully, Dyssul, Tryweryn, Sheppy - oops that’s the country gone {although Tully is rare and a bit far now})
Division 1 spread, separate by area, there are pressures in all directions, Llangollen to Llandyssul is closer (in time) than Shepperton to HPP, and all pale into insignificance when looking at Tully to any other site. Personally - back in the mists of time, I was div 1 from Bristol, Hemel Hempstead and Windsor, when there was no HPP, and no Thames weir div 1s, Llandysul was a 2/3. But Bath, Shepperton, Adur were all strong clubs, and we had British Team C2 from Exeter. And of course Slalom team from Brighton. Hence the suggestion of a national division, without 'quotas'.
Just found out Nick is indisposed so there may be a delay in publishing on his site. Hope all goes well Nick!
The div 2 regions are somewhat fuzzy, as you say it depends where you are. Newcastle paddlers being closer to Scottish events than to HPP, so are they in the 'Scottish' zone? Symonds Yat (if it comes back) is closer to Bristol than to Aberystwyth, so is it Wales or Southern England. Will be trying to get feelings on this as further development. (Nice touch mentioning Orton Mere, you know how to get my attention!) I think I can safely say Seaton Park is Scotland, Tryweryn is Wales, and North Walls is south)
Anyone like to try definitions? Or do I take my life in my hands again and just cut up the map, not really knowing how far paddlers in Harrogate will travel for a div 2? I remember how far I went as a Bristol Div 2, and will go now as a Peterborough div 2, but I may be exceptional, (Peterborough or Bristol I went/go to Grandtully, Dyssul, Tryweryn, Sheppy - oops that’s the country gone {although Tully is rare and a bit far now})
Division 1 spread, separate by area, there are pressures in all directions, Llangollen to Llandyssul is closer (in time) than Shepperton to HPP, and all pale into insignificance when looking at Tully to any other site. Personally - back in the mists of time, I was div 1 from Bristol, Hemel Hempstead and Windsor, when there was no HPP, and no Thames weir div 1s, Llandysul was a 2/3. But Bath, Shepperton, Adur were all strong clubs, and we had British Team C2 from Exeter. And of course Slalom team from Brighton. Hence the suggestion of a national division, without 'quotas'.
Just found out Nick is indisposed so there may be a delay in publishing on his site. Hope all goes well Nick!
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
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Canadian Paddler
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If you have trouble accessing the web version let me know and I will send you your own pdf
CP
CP
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
It is certainly good to get something down on paper that can be discussed and defining the purpose of the divisional system seems an excellent idea.
Not surprisingly most of my comments are around div 1.
Possibly a third category of paddlers who enjoy competing and paddling the tougher water but do not want to put in the time to progress to prem. Not necessarily ageing!
Given this definition (yours and my added bit) I think that div 1 has a bit of a split personality and whilst it has a national element for those on the up there are still a number for whom regions have a place... albeit fairly large regions.
I think this is an assumption often made but really needs a proper survey to check as opposed to bank andecdotes. I'm not at all convinced that div 1 paddlers miss events because of the number of events - for those not intent on promotion to prem it is as likely to be other factors .. exams, another life, sheer distances involved etc. If there were only 5 events and they clashed with exams and holidays then we wouldn't go to any! I don't think we are unique.
I may be being a little cynical but I suspect that
Should we reconsider the necessity of having section judges for div 1 events. Perhaps we could limit the damage by having having a jury chair appointed by the slalom committee and requiring two judges for significant gates.
If won't surprise you to hear that I am concerned about the omission of Shepperton from this list. Given that past comments have included "it's more like a prem course than div 1" and "it's too hard for a div 1" and we often have a couple of paddlers drop out because the water is too big, I think Sheppy should be on this list.
Furthermore, as I said earlier I think some regionality is needed in div 1 and since all the sites on the list are either in the North or in Wales one named site in the South seems appropriate.
I never quite see this - we are half way through the season now and there are only 3 K1M div 1 promotions to Prem which doesn't seem excessive to me. Some movement seems healthy. I believe there are alternative solutions to this "problem" which have been discussed on previous threads. I don't think cutting back on events is the right approach.
From previous threads I think there will be lots of support from this aim. However, reading the paper I think there is a danger that what we end up with is all div 1 events being run on the same weekends as prem (ie prem Sat, div 1 Sun) and that we loose the few remaining div 1/2 events which give div 2 paddlers the opportunity to see div 1 paddlers tackling a similar course to themselves (albeit often made harder by trickier gates). The shock of going from a div 2 to a prem/1 event could be greater.
I too share concern about the positioning of these boundaries and perspective. Those North of Watford probably consider Shepperton to be the deep south :laugh: but there is a sizeable population further south still. HPP is definitely North for us - can be 4hrs on a Friday night (though less when the traffic is lighter).
Very few div 3/4 events within an hour and a half for us, not even Orton Mere
(There, knew I'd get it in somehow). Agree with the principle though.
.
) the only southern div 1 and is important to southern paddlers.
Bed time.....!
Not surprisingly most of my comments are around div 1.
This national (rather than regional) division has a dual purpose, it is the proving ground for up and coming paddlers, but also a home for the aging paddler, who may not be as fit as they once were, but are still competitive and enjoy paddling on harder water.
Possibly a third category of paddlers who enjoy competing and paddling the tougher water but do not want to put in the time to progress to prem. Not necessarily ageing!
Given this definition (yours and my added bit) I think that div 1 has a bit of a split personality and whilst it has a national element for those on the up there are still a number for whom regions have a place... albeit fairly large regions.
there are a large number of division 1 events, as a result the paddlers in division 1 either miss events, or....
I think this is an assumption often made but really needs a proper survey to check as opposed to bank andecdotes. I'm not at all convinced that div 1 paddlers miss events because of the number of events - for those not intent on promotion to prem it is as likely to be other factors .. exams, another life, sheer distances involved etc. If there were only 5 events and they clashed with exams and holidays then we wouldn't go to any! I don't think we are unique.
I may be being a little cynical but I suspect that
is a significant part of the drive to reduce number of events.The section judge and timing teams are being asked to give up
almost every weekend.
Should we reconsider the necessity of having section judges for div 1 events. Perhaps we could limit the damage by having having a jury chair appointed by the slalom committee and requiring two judges for significant gates.
Example sites: Bala Mill finishing just below the fall, Grandtully, Holme Pierrepont, Serpents Tail, Tees (revised), Tryweryn, Washburn,
If won't surprise you to hear that I am concerned about the omission of Shepperton from this list. Given that past comments have included "it's more like a prem course than div 1" and "it's too hard for a div 1" and we often have a couple of paddlers drop out because the water is too big, I think Sheppy should be on this list.
Furthermore, as I said earlier I think some regionality is needed in div 1 and since all the sites on the list are either in the North or in Wales one named site in the South seems appropriate.
The sheer numbers of events result in more and more people getting promoted. With the current athlete numbers, the pyramidal structure that is being worked towards each
year becomes more and more top heavy as the season progresses. Making return to a pyramidal structure difficult and painful for all involved.
I never quite see this - we are half way through the season now and there are only 3 K1M div 1 promotions to Prem which doesn't seem excessive to me. Some movement seems healthy. I believe there are alternative solutions to this "problem" which have been discussed on previous threads. I don't think cutting back on events is the right approach.
the reduction in the number of events in the
divisions above will allow this division [2] to be held on more challenging water, reducing the current jump in standard from division 2 to division 1, improving the continuity of challenge.
From previous threads I think there will be lots of support from this aim. However, reading the paper I think there is a danger that what we end up with is all div 1 events being run on the same weekends as prem (ie prem Sat, div 1 Sun) and that we loose the few remaining div 1/2 events which give div 2 paddlers the opportunity to see div 1 paddlers tackling a similar course to themselves (albeit often made harder by trickier gates). The shock of going from a div 2 to a prem/1 event could be greater.
Wales, Scotland, North
of England, and South of England, this is not on strict boundaries, but can be developed to
reflect the „circuits‟ that paddlers attend
I too share concern about the positioning of these boundaries and perspective. Those North of Watford probably consider Shepperton to be the deep south :laugh: but there is a sizeable population further south still. HPP is definitely North for us - can be 4hrs on a Friday night (though less when the traffic is lighter).
Paddlers will travel for an hour to an hour a half to get to division 3/4 events
depending on where they are in they are in the country, so we should not run division 3
events closer than two hours travelling from one another.
Very few div 3/4 events within an hour and a half for us, not even Orton Mere
(There, knew I'd get it in somehow). Agree with the principle though. .
Absolutely agree with this but here's a thought for consideration. For some venues the course may be more appropriate as a 3/4 at low levels but a 2/3 when water rises a little. How about considering calendar entries for div 2/3/4 with an understanding that either the div 4 course will be a subset of 2/3 or either div 2 or div 4 will be dropped when water levels can be predicted and decision published on web. This wouldn't have been practical before the web but is it worth considering now or is it just too prone to confusion?it will become apparent that it will not be
possible to run triple division events on the same course
If we do not preserve some regional considerations at div 1, I think there is a risk that the English sport becomes purely a Northern sport.There is a risk that we lose sites/slaloms clubs.
. Not at div 3/4 level, but we made quite a bit at the double div 1/2 in 2009 even if we ignore canteen profits which were also pretty healthy. It really must depend on the site and the numbers. Having said this I think cash is only part of the reason for running the event and that the main reason at Shepperton is an awareness that it is (wasClubs do not make a great deal of money from running
slaloms
) the only southern div 1 and is important to southern paddlers.Bed time.....!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
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Nick Penfold
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I for one got off right on the wrong foot with this paper. Right up front seemed to be "making some money". Hardly anywhere was "because we enjoy this sort of competition" and the paddler, at all levels including Prem, who paddles for the pleasure of the challenge, (and isn't necessarily over the hill, he/she's just got a life) is pretty much ignored.
There's good stuff here, Colin, but I nearly didn't get to it.
Why not start by looking at what the paddlers are there for? We could identify several key types - novice/trier out, developer, would-be champion, pleasure of the challenge (at all levels), star, etc. Then we could fit the strategy to them.
There's good stuff here, Colin, but I nearly didn't get to it.
Why not start by looking at what the paddlers are there for? We could identify several key types - novice/trier out, developer, would-be champion, pleasure of the challenge (at all levels), star, etc. Then we could fit the strategy to them.
In interesting read...
not sure about some bits, can Abbey not be included on the secondary list for prem events and certainly on the div 1 list?
the one hour away rule is a little close for div 4's I'd go with the 2 hrs. For us that could mean that a tyne valley div 4 could be the same weekend as abbey and quite a lot of our nippers would attend both events if on different weekends...
when breaking down the regions, we run a div 2 the weekend after howsham wear and we are planning on having a training camp between those two events to bring on the paddlers, i think the same happens with tully and fairnilee in august, and tully over easter, would these restrictions stop this? Or could this be encouraged and support from employed coaches be sought to organise/aid the training camps? This way we could see people tarvelling further to events as they would be more worthwhile, nippers and other non age specific learners could improve and progress and both events could see attendances rising...
Just for the record, I race for the fun of it and enjoy the challenge of courses, I would be less likely to race if all we got to race on was non discript concrete ditches, I have travelled across europe to paddle on them, but i also like variety, so both bourg and augsburg are on my list as places to go and visit again!
I primary reason that i run races is to gain revenue for the club, but secondary reasons are to increase the variety of events available to others and to get more people to compete in the sport that I love. Running events has an added bonus that it brings my club closer together all chipping in to overcome problems that inevitably arise!
I hope that my comments add to the discussions! Just thought I'd say my piece!
Nicky
not sure about some bits, can Abbey not be included on the secondary list for prem events and certainly on the div 1 list?
the one hour away rule is a little close for div 4's I'd go with the 2 hrs. For us that could mean that a tyne valley div 4 could be the same weekend as abbey and quite a lot of our nippers would attend both events if on different weekends...
when breaking down the regions, we run a div 2 the weekend after howsham wear and we are planning on having a training camp between those two events to bring on the paddlers, i think the same happens with tully and fairnilee in august, and tully over easter, would these restrictions stop this? Or could this be encouraged and support from employed coaches be sought to organise/aid the training camps? This way we could see people tarvelling further to events as they would be more worthwhile, nippers and other non age specific learners could improve and progress and both events could see attendances rising...
Just for the record, I race for the fun of it and enjoy the challenge of courses, I would be less likely to race if all we got to race on was non discript concrete ditches, I have travelled across europe to paddle on them, but i also like variety, so both bourg and augsburg are on my list as places to go and visit again!
I primary reason that i run races is to gain revenue for the club, but secondary reasons are to increase the variety of events available to others and to get more people to compete in the sport that I love. Running events has an added bonus that it brings my club closer together all chipping in to overcome problems that inevitably arise!
I hope that my comments add to the discussions! Just thought I'd say my piece!
Nicky
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Nick Penfold
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A comment on "areas".
The "area" a Div 2 or 3 paddler is likely to go to is a radius defined by travel times around his own home, and may be uniquely his/hers, not a geographical patch we can define. The best we can do may be to ensure a balanced distribution. If areas we can define help, good: but it's a crude solution.
The home-centred travel factor also means that events apparently far apart do actually compete for the attendance of the paddlers who live around midway between them.
The "area" a Div 2 or 3 paddler is likely to go to is a radius defined by travel times around his own home, and may be uniquely his/hers, not a geographical patch we can define. The best we can do may be to ensure a balanced distribution. If areas we can define help, good: but it's a crude solution.
The home-centred travel factor also means that events apparently far apart do actually compete for the attendance of the paddlers who live around midway between them.
Good read generally, although i'm not really sure where the last paragraph is going? it seems to have no real point.
I feel there are too many Div 1 races and i don't attend them all for several reasons. these are;
1. time - I don't have enough weekends to do all the races, play canoe polo, see my family and then organise races/events on top for the club.
2. Suitablilty of water - I am in the category of once-upon-a-time good prem paddler(if i do say so myself) who now races purely for fun, does a bit of training but not as much as i should/could, but likes to do well when i do race. as such i pick and chose my races, so i go to big water events (tryweren, tully, hpp, teeside). I would not dream of entering events which are essentialy a sprint with the odd ripple (llandysull, washburn, townfalls).
3. Value - we do do an expensive sport, but i'd like to get more out of my weekends so i would love to see more double events run, which not only give better value on entry fees, but also travel and accomadation costs.
As an aside, (related to point 2) i would love to see more prem/1 events run on the same course, not just the same river! :;):
Dee wrote:there are a large number of division 1 events, as a result the paddlers in division 1 either miss events, or....
I think this is an assumption often made but really needs a proper survey to check as opposed to bank andecdotes. I'm not at all convinced that div 1 paddlers miss events because of the number of events - for those not intent on promotion to prem it is as likely to be other factors .. exams, another life, sheer distances involved etc. If there were only 5 events and they clashed with exams and holidays then we wouldn't go to any! I don't think we are unique.
I feel there are too many Div 1 races and i don't attend them all for several reasons. these are;
1. time - I don't have enough weekends to do all the races, play canoe polo, see my family and then organise races/events on top for the club.
2. Suitablilty of water - I am in the category of once-upon-a-time good prem paddler(if i do say so myself) who now races purely for fun, does a bit of training but not as much as i should/could, but likes to do well when i do race. as such i pick and chose my races, so i go to big water events (tryweren, tully, hpp, teeside). I would not dream of entering events which are essentialy a sprint with the odd ripple (llandysull, washburn, townfalls).
3. Value - we do do an expensive sport, but i'd like to get more out of my weekends so i would love to see more double events run, which not only give better value on entry fees, but also travel and accomadation costs.
As an aside, (related to point 2) i would love to see more prem/1 events run on the same course, not just the same river! :;):
Oldschool
if there wer fewer races would you do a higher percentage of them or the same percentage but few races? What about if there were more races?
if there wer fewer races would you do a higher percentage of them or the same percentage but few races? What about if there were more races?
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
Quote
there are a large number of division 1 events, as a result the paddlers in division 1 either miss events, or....
I think this is an assumption often made but really needs a proper survey to check as opposed to bank andecdotes. I'm not at all convinced that div 1 paddlers miss events because of the number of events - for those not intent on promotion to prem it is as likely to be other factors .. exams, another life, sheer distances involved etc. If there were only 5 events and they clashed with exams and holidays then we wouldn't go to any! I don't think we are unique.
I agree with this. I enjoy competing in div 1 but also play polo competitively. I already find it hard enough to attend many div 1s with weekend clashes (eg Washburn 1 double is the same weekend as the national polo champs) and as also mentioned there is one or two I must rule out due to distance (eg for me shepperton would be a 16 hour round trip). I already feel there aren't that many left and I don't want to give slalom up!
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Nick Penfold
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djberriman
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Making money for the club, certainly last on our list. Usually we just about break even despite our best efforts (food, duo's, short course div4, camping, parking). If you take into account the money spent on just fuel to organise the event I doubt many make any money. If it were purely about money we would be better off sticking our fuel money in the club kitty and doing something else. A lot of cost comes down to setup somewhere remote means more fuel costs, portable toilets, access/water fees etc compared to a purpose built site with fixed overheads.
Seem to have missed enjoyment, socialising and for want of a better phase 'club bonding/building'. Slalom (and other events) brings together many club members who might never or rarely meet. Many paddlers first experience of slalom will be on the door step at the club event. It also raises awareness of the sport and the club in the area, showing canoeing in a positive light.
Typo on Page 2, Division 3 assume it should read "if held with Division 4".
Got confused by the double negatives in Page 4, Division 4. "Events may be held on any day, but in order not to compete should not be less than an hour from another event ont he same day".
Typo in last line of document.
You don't appear to have considered cost and travel time as a factor in why paddlers do not attend events, simply there are too many so paddlers just don't bother, travelling to the other end of the country for a one day race is just not a good use of resources. I've never paddled Shepperton for that very reason, this year I paddled Easter Tully but it was a push to get up there in time (6 hour drive) and not cheap for 3 runs (all in the morning) and another 6 hour drive back. Doubt I'll do it next year unless I can fit the training week in. A long drive is not the best prep for a race. Parents have jobs, many work shifts and can only make certain events. There will always be events outside canoeing that restrict paddlers choice to attend (planned and unplanned). Limiting events too much restricts their choice furher and makes other disciplines such as polo look more attractive and better value for money.
Would be good if we could avoid Prem/1 races on the same weekends as 3/4s. At a guess a lot of club slalom coaches are in prem/1 and so can not take their youngsters to 3/4 events to get them involved or to do so means missing out on their own racing. This is mentioned in the document but does need to be born in mind when scheduling events.
Pity to see Washburn is a secondary site for Prem given on going developments there and that it looks like no more Div 1 at Llanysul or Abbey Rapids.
Given too may offers of events, why should some places get two? This just favours the local paddler who has access to regular training on that water. Surely variety is better. Its often interesting to see who struggles on longer/slower courses when the water isn't so big (and who gets better results!).
Text seems to contradict itself "refelecting the expectation that they will run one event and in many years a second event" but just below it says "it will be rare for site to hold more than one prem event a year". Perhaps you mean it might run a div 1 but its not clear.
Not sure who would turn up to a club organised open event with no ranking status nor who would want to run one. Cheaper for the paddler, better income for the club, less volunteers needed to just have an open training day. eg a washburn release with gates on the top section, perhaps with a period of 'full runs only' towards the end of the day.
When organising the calendar we need to ensure negotiations are held with clubs before dates are changed year to year as often clubs have other commitments (helping/padding at higher ranking events, polo/marathon competitions etc) or restrictions on their access to slalom courses (imposed by landowner or natural england etc) which means it is hard (if not impossible in some cases) to move to another weekend. Its not simply a case of defending a weekend ferociously.
I can't help feel that we are trying to protect paddlers from getting demoted from Prem, not quite sure how this is 'painful'. Who are those who find this a painful experience? If paddlers are regularly attending events and attaining the required level then surely they will stay up?
Similarly (and up front I will say I do greatly value the individuals contributions without whom we don't have a sport) it appears we are restricting the calendar to fit the current timing team to reduce them being overworked rather than looking at increasing the number of volunteers in the team so they perhaps do one event in 2 or 3 rather than being asked to do every event.
Finally it seems a great pity that any alternative system is simply dismissed with a one line statement. Surely if we are going to have a strategty and costs are going up, disposable income going down we should at least look at alternatives to the 'painful' pyramid system and simply have an open ranking system. That way there is no painful promotion or demotion.
PS. Did the results of the survey ever get published?
Seem to have missed enjoyment, socialising and for want of a better phase 'club bonding/building'. Slalom (and other events) brings together many club members who might never or rarely meet. Many paddlers first experience of slalom will be on the door step at the club event. It also raises awareness of the sport and the club in the area, showing canoeing in a positive light.
Typo on Page 2, Division 3 assume it should read "if held with Division 4".
Got confused by the double negatives in Page 4, Division 4. "Events may be held on any day, but in order not to compete should not be less than an hour from another event ont he same day".
Typo in last line of document.
You don't appear to have considered cost and travel time as a factor in why paddlers do not attend events, simply there are too many so paddlers just don't bother, travelling to the other end of the country for a one day race is just not a good use of resources. I've never paddled Shepperton for that very reason, this year I paddled Easter Tully but it was a push to get up there in time (6 hour drive) and not cheap for 3 runs (all in the morning) and another 6 hour drive back. Doubt I'll do it next year unless I can fit the training week in. A long drive is not the best prep for a race. Parents have jobs, many work shifts and can only make certain events. There will always be events outside canoeing that restrict paddlers choice to attend (planned and unplanned). Limiting events too much restricts their choice furher and makes other disciplines such as polo look more attractive and better value for money.
Would be good if we could avoid Prem/1 races on the same weekends as 3/4s. At a guess a lot of club slalom coaches are in prem/1 and so can not take their youngsters to 3/4 events to get them involved or to do so means missing out on their own racing. This is mentioned in the document but does need to be born in mind when scheduling events.
Pity to see Washburn is a secondary site for Prem given on going developments there and that it looks like no more Div 1 at Llanysul or Abbey Rapids.
Given too may offers of events, why should some places get two? This just favours the local paddler who has access to regular training on that water. Surely variety is better. Its often interesting to see who struggles on longer/slower courses when the water isn't so big (and who gets better results!).
Text seems to contradict itself "refelecting the expectation that they will run one event and in many years a second event" but just below it says "it will be rare for site to hold more than one prem event a year". Perhaps you mean it might run a div 1 but its not clear.
Not sure who would turn up to a club organised open event with no ranking status nor who would want to run one. Cheaper for the paddler, better income for the club, less volunteers needed to just have an open training day. eg a washburn release with gates on the top section, perhaps with a period of 'full runs only' towards the end of the day.
When organising the calendar we need to ensure negotiations are held with clubs before dates are changed year to year as often clubs have other commitments (helping/padding at higher ranking events, polo/marathon competitions etc) or restrictions on their access to slalom courses (imposed by landowner or natural england etc) which means it is hard (if not impossible in some cases) to move to another weekend. Its not simply a case of defending a weekend ferociously.
I can't help feel that we are trying to protect paddlers from getting demoted from Prem, not quite sure how this is 'painful'. Who are those who find this a painful experience? If paddlers are regularly attending events and attaining the required level then surely they will stay up?
Similarly (and up front I will say I do greatly value the individuals contributions without whom we don't have a sport) it appears we are restricting the calendar to fit the current timing team to reduce them being overworked rather than looking at increasing the number of volunteers in the team so they perhaps do one event in 2 or 3 rather than being asked to do every event.
Finally it seems a great pity that any alternative system is simply dismissed with a one line statement. Surely if we are going to have a strategty and costs are going up, disposable income going down we should at least look at alternatives to the 'painful' pyramid system and simply have an open ranking system. That way there is no painful promotion or demotion.
PS. Did the results of the survey ever get published?
Dee wrote:if there wer fewer races would you do a higher percentage of them or the same percentage but few races? What about if there were more races?
It would depend if the good races were still on the calender. I'd still do all the Tryweren, Tully and HPP races i could make, and any on the new courses (cardiff, teesside, brox) that were made available to Div1.
I would still avoid all the less technical courses (washburn, dysull, townfalls/s tail) if i had the choice, as they just do not appeal to me. As another poster/user pointed out I'd rather go and play a weekend of polo than do a race at washburn. For me that race is simply a 2 min sprint down a course which provides very little technical challenge but where, in my experience, results are mainly based on fitness order(not worth me turning up!)
So in answer to the question i would do the same races whether they formed 100% or 25% of the season.
Maybe i'm turning into a grumpy old unfit moaner, but i wanna race on exciting water with challenging courses. Perhaps i should do a proper winters training and really push to get back in prem so i can get this from a ranking season?
On a seperate point i'm sure i'm not the only one who remebers when we used to run div 2 courses on what are now Prem venues. Are we now "making do" with "substandard" water for prem races? just a question, but it seems to me we have gained some new and improved artifical courses but when we lose a natural site we just settle for the next best option and race there instead.
Having said that the Div 2's on the Graveyard in july(when there used to be a div 1 on the international and a div 3 on the campsite all on the same weekend) was always a well attended event. Although this did put the amount of judges available to the limit it was one event(weekend) that was the seasons biggest club weekend appart from interclubs. And the div 2 on the serpents tail on the same weekend as the town falls prem/1 always gave the season a good close, and kickstart into winter training.
does anyone else remeber these events as fondly as i do or were they more trouble to those running them than they were worth?
I loved the serpents tail div 2, I got promoted from 2-1 there when it was huge, what a great race, there was never a shortage of entries either, i finished 2nd and was worried i was going to drop to third as there were only 78 div 2 K1M and there needed to be at least 81 for 3 promotions!
Would be good to try and get more races on at the same place again. In polo players have to ref, no issue that's the way it is. Can we not do the same in slalom? Could we run a div 3/4 at HPP on the darlecs, or the chicken shoot? Or a prem/1 on the top section with a 2/3 on the lower section and have a div 4 on the winfield pool? Have a HPP weekend, a Teesside weekend, a Tully weekend, Tryweryn, washburn etc etc, the list goes on, these would be great for clubs to travel to. remove the draw of other events avoid spliting families as the races are all in the same place. This would also improve the affordability of venues and potentially increase sponsorship potential. 1000 people at an event rather than a couple of hundred...
We're trying to do it with Teesside next year with a prem/1 and a 3/4 if the warm up lake is improved to have some decent flow...
Nicky
Would be good to try and get more races on at the same place again. In polo players have to ref, no issue that's the way it is. Can we not do the same in slalom? Could we run a div 3/4 at HPP on the darlecs, or the chicken shoot? Or a prem/1 on the top section with a 2/3 on the lower section and have a div 4 on the winfield pool? Have a HPP weekend, a Teesside weekend, a Tully weekend, Tryweryn, washburn etc etc, the list goes on, these would be great for clubs to travel to. remove the draw of other events avoid spliting families as the races are all in the same place. This would also improve the affordability of venues and potentially increase sponsorship potential. 1000 people at an event rather than a couple of hundred...
We're trying to do it with Teesside next year with a prem/1 and a 3/4 if the warm up lake is improved to have some decent flow...
Nicky