Kendal Chew,
has brought up a interesting subject and is looking for input. He writes...
I am an osteopath and a paddling dad. During my daughter's time in slalom I have noticed that the number of shoulder injuries sustained in young female paddlers in my club is significantly higher than in their male counterparts. Speaking to a number of seasoned coaches it would seem that this is true across the sport as a whole.
I would like to attempt a review of training methods, speed of transfer through divisions and numbers of cross gender juvenile shoulder injuries experienced, to understand why the above observation is the case, if indeed it is. The theory I wish to explore is that young female paddlers traverse the Divisions too quickly, ending up in Division 1 before their bodies are ready to accept the enormous differences in load produced on Div 1 water compared with Div 2 water. Whereas male paddlers of similar age groups and experience are, by the numbers of paddlers involved forced to remain in the Div 2 training ground for approximately twelve months longer, thus giving them a better physical grounding.
If my belief is correct it may be that as competitive group, with long term aspirations of bringing medals back from overseas, we need to rein in our "female young guns" in the short term in order to achieve better, longer lasting results in the future. I might even suggest that we should prevent young, developing paddlers from competing on bigger water until they have spent two years in Division 2. This is the argument I wish to explore.
I believe that this study will take around twelve months to complete (it may take longer as this is a study done whilst continuing to run a busy practice). I have Phil Mcdonagh, BCU Coach, who will help me with the research and filtering of pre existing literature on juvenile shoulder injuries.
Please contact me (email address below) if you have information which you think may help.
Yours sincerely,
Kendall Chew
My initial response is.. In my experience there are very few injuries sustained in competition, most
happen during training so trying to hold back competitor in divisions would
not work to prevent injuries. I feel what is needed is good coaching that
emphasizes gradual progression and overload in intensity of physical
training, technique work and water used. Injuries occur when the athlete
tries to progress too fast. It seems that most young athletes and their
coaches want the athlete to train on heavy water before strength and good
technique permits the athlete to do this safely. White water by it very
nature is a chaotic environment and athlete often find themselves out of
control at times and vulnerable to injury. The only real protection is if
the athlete is strong and able to resist these high forces and has very good
basic technique. There really is little point in any athlete training on
heavy water if they can not perform well on easy water already, to do so in
my opinion is asking for trouble as so many athletes have found out.
What I would recommend is a good strength and condition program for any
athlete well before they are exposed to heavy white water training. This way
they can develop physically in a relatively controlled way without serious
risk of injury.
This not only a problem for young females but also for many of the lighter
framed males.
Jim Jayes.
Shoulder Injuries in Young Female Paddlers - Shoulder Injuries in Young Female Paddle
I have been trying to understand how paddlers are succumbing to shoulder injuries for some time. I have written to Kendal already on this subject, but I will offer the following as a response to Jim's post.
In my experience I have seen shoulder dislocations in mature males. Either older paddlers coming into the sport late, in which case I have come to the conclusion that the injuries are caused by a combination of poor technique and a lack of conditioning. On the other hand where the paddler is younger I believe that the injury has been caused by innapropriate strength training emphasising the arms, chest and back so that the paddler develops sufficient power to pull their own shoulder out.
In my experience I have seen shoulder dislocations in mature males. Either older paddlers coming into the sport late, in which case I have come to the conclusion that the injuries are caused by a combination of poor technique and a lack of conditioning. On the other hand where the paddler is younger I believe that the injury has been caused by innapropriate strength training emphasising the arms, chest and back so that the paddler develops sufficient power to pull their own shoulder out.
I experienced a shoulder dislocation in 2008 at the age of 16. I came into the sport of canoe slalom 2 years previously but have paddled regularly for the past 8 years. A post injury assessment by a physio showed me that my muscular development was good but not in the right areas. I was overdeveloped in my arms and chest and underdeveloped in my back. Therefore I had poor shoulder positioning which meant that as my shoulder was pulled forward, the socket became loose and opened up allowing the joint to dislocate.
I didn't find this out until it was too late. This must be the case in other people, especially those coming into the sport after their main muscular growth and development has occurred. (late teens)
This issue was very easily corrected with expert advice. If only i had known sooner...
I didn't find this out until it was too late. This must be the case in other people, especially those coming into the sport after their main muscular growth and development has occurred. (late teens)
This issue was very easily corrected with expert advice. If only i had known sooner...
In my opinion, the 'problem' of women progressing up the divisions has been a little over-dressed; most of the people who I've talked to who have gained shoulder problems through paddling have probably had long enough paddling to have built up the muscular strength if they were going to. My guess is that the problem is that canoeing alone, particularly for women, will not build up the muscular strength for shoulder stablity; this needs to be addressed more specifically.
-
Slow Paddler
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:21 pm
- Location: Macclesfield
Thankfully I've not popped a shoulder yet, but after getting permanent pain from impingement in both shoulders I saw a sports physio. My posture was poor - rounded shoulders due to over developed biceps, pecs & anterior deltoids pulling my shoulders out of place, purely from paddling. I was warned it would not be long until my shoulders did pop.
After visits to the gym working mainly the traps / rhomboids / posterior deltoids & working on posture in a boat I rarely get the pain any more from a boat.
Hopefully I've done enough to prevent dislocation. However even after 6 months I still can't perform lat raises or lat pull downs without the pain.
Get any pain checked out early !!!!
After visits to the gym working mainly the traps / rhomboids / posterior deltoids & working on posture in a boat I rarely get the pain any more from a boat.
Hopefully I've done enough to prevent dislocation. However even after 6 months I still can't perform lat raises or lat pull downs without the pain.
Get any pain checked out early !!!!
I’ve been liaising with Kendall and he’s been very helpful.
Here’s a summary of our conversations.
Saw your Shoulder Injuries bit on the website. I thought I'd drop you a quick line as it struck a chord after today.
My son paddled in the Div 2 at Shepperton today, as you know he's not very
old just turned 11 in also he's quite small.
Anyway, he had to pull up mid second run today and from where I stood,
judging at the other side of the course, he looked in pain.
He says he heard something "pop" and then felt it.
It was his intention to go and paddle a Judges run at the Shepperton Div
1 tomorrow, clearly that is not wise.
He began paddling when he was 9, did one or two races in Div 4 got
promoted and went through Div 3 in 3 months. At the time I wondered if it was too
fast. He did the HPP 1/2 last June and in July we went to L'Argentiere,
where I recall, at one point; he had a similar problem as today.
The water at Shepperton probably wasn't an issue for those more physically developed, providing they are relatively fit, it did cross my mind on what strain he could be putting
on his developing body.
Of course I don't know what, this injury was, shoulder or arm, but he's
resting it regardless.
It was cold at Shepperton on Saturday, drizzly all day and water still cold. He did paddle around to warm up but like most he then sat around waiting for start. It may be that he needs to stretch up and down more often before getting on. When I'm waiting for start I normally stretch out my triceps and arms - especially if it's cold.
I sat him down and had a chat with him this morning (Monday.) He says his arm is ok and feeling better. I asked him about the popping sound but now he says he's not sure if it could have been something else and not his arm. Kids! I did say that if it ever happened again that he needed to be clear in what happened in case he needed treatment.
I asked him to indicate where he had residual pain and he ran his finger along the tricep of his left arm to just above the elbow. He said it did hurt a bit at first towards the shoulder but it had gone away. I know that pain can seem to transmit out in muscle injuries.
Obviously there is always a risk involved and I accept that. However, I informed control over the radio that he had pulled out and looked like he needed attention, to my knowledge no-one came to see him. Which is not ideal, I imagine there was a first aider present.
Kendall has offered helpful advice and if he wants to share it it's ok by me. I'm hoping to speak to a friend who is a Paediatric Physiotherapist later.
What a shame his body isn't as finely tuned as mine. My body is a temple.......crumbling and ruined!
Here’s a summary of our conversations.
Saw your Shoulder Injuries bit on the website. I thought I'd drop you a quick line as it struck a chord after today.
My son paddled in the Div 2 at Shepperton today, as you know he's not very
old just turned 11 in also he's quite small.
Anyway, he had to pull up mid second run today and from where I stood,
judging at the other side of the course, he looked in pain.
He says he heard something "pop" and then felt it.
It was his intention to go and paddle a Judges run at the Shepperton Div
1 tomorrow, clearly that is not wise.
He began paddling when he was 9, did one or two races in Div 4 got
promoted and went through Div 3 in 3 months. At the time I wondered if it was too
fast. He did the HPP 1/2 last June and in July we went to L'Argentiere,
where I recall, at one point; he had a similar problem as today.
The water at Shepperton probably wasn't an issue for those more physically developed, providing they are relatively fit, it did cross my mind on what strain he could be putting
on his developing body.
Of course I don't know what, this injury was, shoulder or arm, but he's
resting it regardless.
It was cold at Shepperton on Saturday, drizzly all day and water still cold. He did paddle around to warm up but like most he then sat around waiting for start. It may be that he needs to stretch up and down more often before getting on. When I'm waiting for start I normally stretch out my triceps and arms - especially if it's cold.
I sat him down and had a chat with him this morning (Monday.) He says his arm is ok and feeling better. I asked him about the popping sound but now he says he's not sure if it could have been something else and not his arm. Kids! I did say that if it ever happened again that he needed to be clear in what happened in case he needed treatment.
I asked him to indicate where he had residual pain and he ran his finger along the tricep of his left arm to just above the elbow. He said it did hurt a bit at first towards the shoulder but it had gone away. I know that pain can seem to transmit out in muscle injuries.
Obviously there is always a risk involved and I accept that. However, I informed control over the radio that he had pulled out and looked like he needed attention, to my knowledge no-one came to see him. Which is not ideal, I imagine there was a first aider present.
Kendall has offered helpful advice and if he wants to share it it's ok by me. I'm hoping to speak to a friend who is a Paediatric Physiotherapist later.
What a shame his body isn't as finely tuned as mine. My body is a temple.......crumbling and ruined!
Another couple of things I have to add:
I think girls tend to be more conservative and use brace strokes more often, aswell as 'only just managing' to roll more often, which would put shoulders in awkward positions.
Women also tend to use less of their body (less rotation) and more of their arms, meaning that the often have to stretch more with their arms, and in the case of bow rudders/draws, put their arm behind their head! Paddling with arms only also seems to put more force on the shoulders, or at least as far as I can tell from my diagram+calculations :S
Cranks supposedly put more stress on the shoulders, which is often motivation for younger paddlers not using cranks.
I would also say that most of the people who I know of having shoulder problems, also have some form of posture issue. This could lead to less activation of the posterior shoulder muscles, and also put shoulders in positions where they are under more stress.
Finally, I can think of 4 men and 5 women with who I know with shoulder issues, so how far apart is the gender gap?
I think girls tend to be more conservative and use brace strokes more often, aswell as 'only just managing' to roll more often, which would put shoulders in awkward positions.
Women also tend to use less of their body (less rotation) and more of their arms, meaning that the often have to stretch more with their arms, and in the case of bow rudders/draws, put their arm behind their head! Paddling with arms only also seems to put more force on the shoulders, or at least as far as I can tell from my diagram+calculations :S
Cranks supposedly put more stress on the shoulders, which is often motivation for younger paddlers not using cranks.
I would also say that most of the people who I know of having shoulder problems, also have some form of posture issue. This could lead to less activation of the posterior shoulder muscles, and also put shoulders in positions where they are under more stress.
Finally, I can think of 4 men and 5 women with who I know with shoulder issues, so how far apart is the gender gap?
I have a problem with my right shoulder. Both doctors and the physios have said that it is because of poor posture at my desk not from paddling (this is something I think is right as last year I was unemployed and paddled more than ever and had no problems, 3 weeks back at work and it is sore againMikeR wrote:I would also say that most of the people who I know of having shoulder problems, also have some form of posture issue. This could lead to less activation of the posterior shoulder muscles, and also put shoulders in positions where they are under more stress.
Finally, I can think of 4 men and 5 women with who I know with shoulder issues, so how far apart is the gender gap?
).However, they did note that paddling left my chest muscles tighter than they would normally be which would pull my shoulders forward slightly and, therefore, out of place, so they have encourraged me to do exercise to losen my chest muscles.
Of paddling related shoulder injuries I know of 2 blokes and 1 girl, 1 of each has had surgery.
I'm no expert in this area but I am a new student within the field of strength & conditioning with the UK S&C Association (UKSCA). My personal interest is based around one of their training programmes called 'weight training for sports performance' (particularly applied to canoe slalom), and this utilises Olympic lift techniques to develop athletes of all disciplines.
The accredited coaches that I have spoken to tend to recommend lifts such as the power clean, the snatch and the overhead squat (with their derivatives) to develop overall strength throughout the posterior and anterior chains. The downside of this type of training is that, like canoe slalom, it requires practice to learn the techniques, and ideally with a knowledgeable or accredited coach.
My point being; I think a consultation with one of the senior coaches at the UKSCA might provide valuable insight to this topic. The coach who took my course is called Gil Stevenson (He is the chair of UKSCA, and actually coaches a Prem K1W paddler)
The accredited coaches that I have spoken to tend to recommend lifts such as the power clean, the snatch and the overhead squat (with their derivatives) to develop overall strength throughout the posterior and anterior chains. The downside of this type of training is that, like canoe slalom, it requires practice to learn the techniques, and ideally with a knowledgeable or accredited coach.
My point being; I think a consultation with one of the senior coaches at the UKSCA might provide valuable insight to this topic. The coach who took my course is called Gil Stevenson (He is the chair of UKSCA, and actually coaches a Prem K1W paddler)
To Fup Duck....
I was the First Aider at Shepp Div2 and nobody called me out. My name was on the board! But to be honest I would only have advised "withdraw" unless the shoulder had actually popped, in which case it would have been a hospital job (done a couple of those as you know, the other one was a pro freestyler at Sheppy).
I know quite a few paddlers with bad shoulders, some like Richard caused by skiing (!) but plenty enough by paddling (James). It can be career ending tho there was one olympic medal so all is not lost if it happens.......
Anyway, Noah is little but will hit his growth spurt soon. Until then let him take it steady. Start gentle strength and conditioning under guidance.
To Kendall: I guess it would be easy enough to survey every slalom paddler directly and build up some stats.
I was the First Aider at Shepp Div2 and nobody called me out. My name was on the board! But to be honest I would only have advised "withdraw" unless the shoulder had actually popped, in which case it would have been a hospital job (done a couple of those as you know, the other one was a pro freestyler at Sheppy).
I know quite a few paddlers with bad shoulders, some like Richard caused by skiing (!) but plenty enough by paddling (James). It can be career ending tho there was one olympic medal so all is not lost if it happens.......
Anyway, Noah is little but will hit his growth spurt soon. Until then let him take it steady. Start gentle strength and conditioning under guidance.
To Kendall: I guess it would be easy enough to survey every slalom paddler directly and build up some stats.
For what it's worth I suffered my first dislocation (well actually subluxation) almost exactly a year ago and I'm neither young nor female, being a lighter framed male and having been paddling for 40 years. And I know about technique.
I remember feeling tired (latter part of an Upper Dart trip), nervous and hesitant, and it happened on almost flat water on breaking in. I must have hit a rock but have no recollection of it happening.
A common theme in this thread seems to be muscle imbalance. After being referred to a sports trainer at my local sports centre I was told it was likely to happen because our sport builds up the front of the shoulder but not behind. And in my case I believe a contributing factor was damage to a rotator cuff a few years previously (sliding a heavy canoe along a hitop - technique gets forgotten when you're up a ladder), leaving the back of the shoulder even more withered. An accident waiting to happen.
I was given exercises, firstly to generally strengthen the shoulder and then specifically for the rotator cuff muscles. I've been doing that ever since and will expect to do so for ever (well as long as I paddle anyway).
I remember feeling tired (latter part of an Upper Dart trip), nervous and hesitant, and it happened on almost flat water on breaking in. I must have hit a rock but have no recollection of it happening.
A common theme in this thread seems to be muscle imbalance. After being referred to a sports trainer at my local sports centre I was told it was likely to happen because our sport builds up the front of the shoulder but not behind. And in my case I believe a contributing factor was damage to a rotator cuff a few years previously (sliding a heavy canoe along a hitop - technique gets forgotten when you're up a ladder), leaving the back of the shoulder even more withered. An accident waiting to happen.
I was given exercises, firstly to generally strengthen the shoulder and then specifically for the rotator cuff muscles. I've been doing that ever since and will expect to do so for ever (well as long as I paddle anyway).
John Kent
-
roodthomas
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:33 pm
- Location: Barnsley
I happen to be with Dave and Leo on this particular issue. I have been working on improving my posture for about a year now and have never had any individual shoulder problems other than the odd muscle twinge, which you tend to get when undertaking any form of strength and conditioning programme.
I have spent some time considering this topic and have experimented with my own body to try and find the solution (as I have been incharge of my own strength and conditioning). I have also considered posture in general, which has become more at the forefront of my mind due to my driving position.
I think that the shoulder issues come down to a number of factors; including posture (in general), strength and conditioning and also coaching.
If general posture isn't good, then this won't translate well into paddling posture. If paddling posture is poor then we are putting a number stesses on certain parts of the body which cant cope with the stress, such as the shoulders, wrists and lower back.
For a lot of paddlers, strength and conditioning is an important part of their training. It is vital that this strength and conditioning is targeting the correct muscles in the shoulders, back, legs and core abs (the larger muscle groups that will be utilised when forward paddling, assuming posture is effective and dynamic). I think it would be highly beneficial if some strength and conditioning sessions were set up for paddlers and their coaches/parents/training partners in order to ensure that training is efficient and effective.
It is also very important that any poor techniques are corrected by the coach or training partners at an early stage before it becomes a bad habbit; for example, me paddling slightly too hunched over with my head down. Had I realised earlier that I was doing this, I wouldn't be having a hard time correcting it now!
There may also be some common sense incorporated into the progression of young paddlers up onto bigger water. The stresses on the body are far more extreme. I don't think its wise to let younger paddlers race on big water until they have had sufficient time to train on big water and let their muscle develop before exposing them to a race situation.
I don't think the main issue is the male/female divide, I think its more correcting poor technique early in order to prevent problems at a later stage. Its more beneficial to correct the fault before it becomes a problem and this applies to both male and female!
Thoughts?
I have spent some time considering this topic and have experimented with my own body to try and find the solution (as I have been incharge of my own strength and conditioning). I have also considered posture in general, which has become more at the forefront of my mind due to my driving position.
I think that the shoulder issues come down to a number of factors; including posture (in general), strength and conditioning and also coaching.
If general posture isn't good, then this won't translate well into paddling posture. If paddling posture is poor then we are putting a number stesses on certain parts of the body which cant cope with the stress, such as the shoulders, wrists and lower back.
For a lot of paddlers, strength and conditioning is an important part of their training. It is vital that this strength and conditioning is targeting the correct muscles in the shoulders, back, legs and core abs (the larger muscle groups that will be utilised when forward paddling, assuming posture is effective and dynamic). I think it would be highly beneficial if some strength and conditioning sessions were set up for paddlers and their coaches/parents/training partners in order to ensure that training is efficient and effective.
It is also very important that any poor techniques are corrected by the coach or training partners at an early stage before it becomes a bad habbit; for example, me paddling slightly too hunched over with my head down. Had I realised earlier that I was doing this, I wouldn't be having a hard time correcting it now!
There may also be some common sense incorporated into the progression of young paddlers up onto bigger water. The stresses on the body are far more extreme. I don't think its wise to let younger paddlers race on big water until they have had sufficient time to train on big water and let their muscle develop before exposing them to a race situation.
I don't think the main issue is the male/female divide, I think its more correcting poor technique early in order to prevent problems at a later stage. Its more beneficial to correct the fault before it becomes a problem and this applies to both male and female!
Thoughts?