For Discussion: Motion 5.7 - Reinstatement of Shepperton Div 1/2

[John Sturgess]

5.7 Shepperton Slalom C.C.
Proposed and seconded by Shepperton Slalom Canoe Club
Shepperton Slalom Canoe Club do not understand the logic behind this event having it’s Division 1 status removed from the proposed calendar, no clear rationale has been offered. The event is the only remaining Division 1 in the South of England and is several hours closer than any other event on the calendar, for a significant number of competitors. The event is an important event for promoting the sport to those in the lower divisions, who may not travel to an event further away, to see what the sport is really all about. It has been suggested that some events are to be lost due to their lack of suitable water.
It is not viable for Shepperton to run the Division 2 event on its own, the number of competitors would be too low, and the water at that time of year is not suitable for the event to be held as a Division 2/3. As this is the only remaining Division 2 event in the South of the country, this will leave the London, South, South East and South West regions with no events above Division 3. Over recent years there have been significant efforts by Shepperton SCC to introduce other clubs to the sport, in an effort to resuscitate it in the most populated regions of England. Without a full programme of accessible events up to Division 1 recent progress in participation levels will be lost.
In order to produce a more geographically balanced Calendar for the 2011 season, the Shepperton Event scheduled for March 5th/6th 2011 should be reinstated as a Double Division 1/2 event.

[John Sturgess]

Nick Penfold says -

5.7 Shepperton Div 1
There is a need for a flagship event in the Southeast and I have every sympathy with Shepperton over the loss of the single Div 1 they held this year. I would support a motion to reinstate it – but not to hold a double.
As training water Shepperton is pretty good, but as an upper-division course it is problematic. The quality of the water is unpredictable; course design options are limited and tend to allow paddlers to adopt missing one or more gates as a strategy and benefit by it; and they usually generate at least one impossible judging decision because, without catching up, one boat obstructs or actually collides with another.
To have the points from one marginal event included in rankings is acceptable; to have two is not sensible. Llandysul’s popular double has been reduced to a single in the draft calendar for just the same reason.

Fup Duck says -

Devil's advocate:-

I don't know if the first paragraph is a reason not to run any specific event; it seems to me thought that deliberately missing gates for benefit should be penalised in some way. Surely it is not beyond us collectively to work out a way to prevent the first or second examples occurring.

When I was at Llandysul last and it was announced it was going to be a single I heard several people from the far north and even other areas say they wouldn't bother next year. I hope this isn't true but sadly I think it will be. I am sure their will be die-hards who will turn up (hopefully not wearing a dirty vest and shouting Yippee ki-ay) but it would be sad if it affected the turn out as it would be too late.

A straw poll would be interesting!

I know it's all been alluded to before, sometimes more than alluded probably, but I can't help thinking positive promotion for the future would be a better route than something that is arguably adding to further to any perceived decline.

[PaulBolton]

Given the ever increasing price of fuel (there's another hike in fuel duty in January), VAT increasing to 20% and wages being frozen, I just cannot see me being able to justify the cost for a single day of point collecting. Do any other paddlers or parents look at the calendar and think "that's an awful lot of miles to get a some decent races in". With limited resources I target maximum return and that means doubles. Unfortunately, there's only one Div 1 double in England so, regretfully, I think I'll just judge at Joe's Div 2s.

[Nicky]

shepperton can be rubbish, however it can be great!

When in the south I enjoyed training there and when I started C1 raced there too. I think that it would be sad to loose events due to them being inconsistent due to water level. If this is the case, then all natural river events need to be cancelled and moved onto ridiculously over priced concrete ditches.

I like rivers and I like slalom. I'd rather race on some flatter water at low level than have a whole season racing at HPP et al. When Town was raced on the flat, the people you expected to win won, the people who you expected in the middle were there too!

I'd rather have variety with a few rubbish, but a few fantastic! (or maybe just a weather machine!)

[djberriman]

I think I looked at the calendar and allowing for clashes (local Div3/4's where I will be coaching) I'm looking at being able to paddle just 5 or 6 events as I'm not prepared to drive for 10 or 12 hours for a single event and spend that much money on fuel.

I'm not keen on the proposed increase in protest fees to £5 due to 'speculative' protests, and not sure why these fees go to the slalom committee rather than the organiser either. I (unusually) protested two runs this year, one I got B.O.D. and the other I had touched a pole although I was unaware. Whilst it might have probably prevented me protesting the 2nd one isn't hiking the fee up five fold just a little over the top.

Similarly whilst I can see the issue with fairness changing the protest time limit to 15 mins seems a little harsh. I can see all sorts of issues, like being the last one down in class at Tully and then getting stuck at the bottom for 20 mins waiting for the first from the next class when rafts appear or say helping with a rescue which takes you outside the limit. I don't really see what the issue is apart from seeking to prevent protests.

Just my 2p worth (or is that 10p now?)

[kendall chew]

[quote="Nicky"][/quote]
As Nicky points out; the quick will be quick and the slow will be slow, no matter what the water level. As a Div 2 paddler I am not going to worry a Div one Ace, we are simply paddling on the same stretch of river. If I find it a bit twitchy well, ok but the higher division will cream it. An opportunity to perform well on marginal water.

If we are to get people from all over the country paddling, surely we need interesting events all around the country. It makes much sense to keep this and Llandysul as double events, not perhaps for the quality of the Div 1 water but for the future benefit of the sport as a whole. Loosing double events will be the start of a slide into oblivion.

[Canadian Paddler]

Similarly whilst I can see the issue with fairness changing the protest time limit to 15 mins seems a little harsh

The aim is to have consistency, 15 minutes is already in place for the last class. BUT at the moment if C1M finishes at 15:00, and C1W finishes 15:05, Protest time for C1W will end at 15:20, but C1M protests end at 16:00....

[Munchkin]

Though CP a good point was raised earlier, it is reasonably forseeable that someone could not see their result in 15 mins either because they are staying on as saftey, involved in a rescue or for somewhere like 'Dysul they are still walking up the course. Some of that wouldn't apply to the last paddlers in the last division...

[John Sturgess]

Colin, Michelle

Wrong Thread?

This Motion 5.7 ...

[Canadian Paddler]

John, no thread for this, so I was responding to a posting in this thread. - Thats why I started with a quote, to show not threadnapping.

As I used to live in Bristol and Windsor, and compete at the highest level, when the nearest top division event was in Wales so I am aware of the challenges for those in the South.
There is no suggestion that Shepperton should be lost forever as a div 1, just not for this year. Personally I would expect to see a div 1 at Sheppy in 2012, so the debate should be is div 1 a competitive division, like Prem, or a recreational division.
The answer is it is BOTH, but how do we as a sport want to support this schizophrenia, treating the division as recreational, so we want good regional spread, or competitive, and therefore national.
Just for once I will be staying fairly quiet, I asked a lot of people at the start of the year, and now we have other views. Need agreement for the next season (or so) until a full strategy is developed - but that is a whole different issue.

[Dee]

There has, of course been masses of discussion about Shepperton elsewhere on these boards, but there is of course only a limited number that use these boards. There has also been a lot of discussion on the river banks mostly (though not all) in support of a double at Shepperton. I've even been asked why we (as in Shepperton) had decided not to run a div 1 this year. ???

Colin - it is, I think, dangerous to drop an event one year and hope that it will get picked up again another time; there is a danger that people drop out and the event just disappears.

In these eco-aware times we need to make sure that events are spread as evenly as possible around the country to give everyone on the recreational side a chance.

[Dee]

PS
I'm guessing that when you live in the South there were still 5 divisions and local slaloms at least to div 2 - on many of the thames weirs. (some of which were lost when they had to be stopped for a couple of years for weir work and then later there was no one to pick them up again)

[Fup Duck]

Given the ever increasing price of fuel (there's another hike in fuel duty in January), VAT increasing to 20% and wages being frozen, I just cannot see me being able to justify the cost for a single day of point collecting. Do any other paddlers or parents look at the calendar and think "that's an awful lot of miles to get a some decent races in". With limited resources I target maximum return and that means doubles. Unfortunately, there's only one Div 1 double in England so, regretfully, I think I'll just judge at Joe's Div 2s.

Yes I do

[Canadian Paddler]

Historical facts ; I started in St Albans when Div 1 was the top division, we had four divisions and events that caused the 250 limit on entries to be set. Moved to Bristol, and went to the Awe, Linton Locks, Serpents Tail as div 2s, moved to Windsor and went to the first ever div 1 at Hambledon. (Later came back and was part of getting Old Windsor as an easy div 1, that later moved to Shepperton when Old Windsor access became difficult)

See you all next week for an 'entertaining' discussion - at least we are talking about what we want from slalom, and how it shoudl be run - sounds almost Strategic, except it is too near focus.

UNLESS [ADVERT] you are coming to the wonderful Peterborough Winter Slalom tomorrow. The course is up, and has been paddled - apparently the course is fine. AND there are a number of prize cakes in the kitchen just waiting to be given out [/ADVERT]

[Dee]

Wish I could be at the ACM - I'm working that weekend