I for one would like to see them continue at every Div1 but if its not possible (for financial reasons) then we need to come up with an alternative as per my post.
)For discussion: Motion 5.14 - Division status
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djberriman
- Posts: 806
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm
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PaulBolton
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:30 pm
- Location: Lincoln
I agree with Duncan. I occasionally do some running events and every competitor is given a personal time via a microchip you wear. There are potentially many technologies that might work, be a lot simpler and require far less human resources. Perhaps the motion should be held over to allow some research?
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Bus Driver
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:50 pm
Not getting on my high horse, getting the hump, or being over sensitive, just want to provide some facts for you before you all go off and re-invent the wheel.........
The old system of timing ie tutti is accurate to time the events that it times and as the slalom committee minutes state, we are already developing a replacement for it, that is afterall the job I was elected to do (if anyone wants it please say so).
We, as in the team, do not wish to only time prem races as we believe that div 1 is a racing division and therefore should be timed to the same standard as a prem. The basic kit we use can be opporated by 2 people, (as long as nothing goes wrong), however, if people want the level of service we believe we provide (feel free to say so if you think we dont dear reader) then it takes more staff, I also dont think that expecting someone to sit on the kit or start/finish (yes all my team) all day is acceptable either as they get stale with no breaks.
We have never said (just to clarify a point here) that we dont want to time races because of the amount of weekends worked. I have a good team around me and without them I couldn't do as much as we as a team do, the proposal for us not to be there, did not come from us and is purely finacial.
The old system of timing ie tutti is accurate to time the events that it times and as the slalom committee minutes state, we are already developing a replacement for it, that is afterall the job I was elected to do (if anyone wants it please say so).
We, as in the team, do not wish to only time prem races as we believe that div 1 is a racing division and therefore should be timed to the same standard as a prem. The basic kit we use can be opporated by 2 people, (as long as nothing goes wrong), however, if people want the level of service we believe we provide (feel free to say so if you think we dont dear reader) then it takes more staff, I also dont think that expecting someone to sit on the kit or start/finish (yes all my team) all day is acceptable either as they get stale with no breaks.
We have never said (just to clarify a point here) that we dont want to time races because of the amount of weekends worked. I have a good team around me and without them I couldn't do as much as we as a team do, the proposal for us not to be there, did not come from us and is purely finacial.
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GreenPeter
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:33 pm
- Location: Peterborough
So we are strapped for cash.
I think I have read in one of the links that Div1 is a schizophrenic division being a mix of racers and recreational paddlers. (what ever a recreational paddler is, I cant fit a flask and sandwiches behind the seat of my boat and besides stopping for a sandwich in the upstream at gate 15 would get in the way of other paddlers).
So if Div1 wants to keep timing teams and section judges, then we only have Div1 on the same weekends as prem events. Perhaps with the added carrot of the re-introduction of team events. Saturday Div1 Teams and Prem individuals , Sunday Div1 Individual & Prem Teams, Keep the same course both days (bonus for organises). I always think it’s a shame that at existing Prem / Div 1 events the course is always made easier for the div1 on the Sunday after all Div1 paddlers have free practice or can judge on the Saturday. I think on a plus side this would improve the standard of Div1 racers, but could possibly be a detriment of the recreational paddlers.
On another down side Div2 paddlers loose out because they don’t get a ranking event on a Div1 course.
Keep Div1 schizophrenic, Div1 and Prems for the high standards of timing teams and section judges. Div1 and Div2 no timing team and section judges, but you can have more Div1 events pleasing both racers and recreational paddlers(perhaps).
And a third option expand Prem by including the top of Div1 as it stands (what ever the top of Div1 is?). And likewise the top of div2 then becomes Div1 and so on. Making Div1 a truly recreational division.
Which opens another whole can of worms do we want a divisional system? ( I do, I think it’s a great motivator for the juniors) would we be better served by open events?
And back to so we are strapped for cash.
What else is happening to save money?
How much do artificial courses cost, I’ve heard some horrendous prices for Lee valley, Cardiff and the Tees barrage, they all make HPP sound like a real bargain.
Who looks after our interests in the BCU (sorry ECU, SCA , WCA & CANI (and doubly sorry not necessarily in that order)) and who are they accountable to.
And somebody please tell me I should not listen to baseless rumours, because I have heard we had to pay for television coverage of the European championships at HPP and that a sponsor was turned down who would cover the costs of the event?
I think I have read in one of the links that Div1 is a schizophrenic division being a mix of racers and recreational paddlers. (what ever a recreational paddler is, I cant fit a flask and sandwiches behind the seat of my boat and besides stopping for a sandwich in the upstream at gate 15 would get in the way of other paddlers).
So if Div1 wants to keep timing teams and section judges, then we only have Div1 on the same weekends as prem events. Perhaps with the added carrot of the re-introduction of team events. Saturday Div1 Teams and Prem individuals , Sunday Div1 Individual & Prem Teams, Keep the same course both days (bonus for organises). I always think it’s a shame that at existing Prem / Div 1 events the course is always made easier for the div1 on the Sunday after all Div1 paddlers have free practice or can judge on the Saturday. I think on a plus side this would improve the standard of Div1 racers, but could possibly be a detriment of the recreational paddlers.
On another down side Div2 paddlers loose out because they don’t get a ranking event on a Div1 course.
Keep Div1 schizophrenic, Div1 and Prems for the high standards of timing teams and section judges. Div1 and Div2 no timing team and section judges, but you can have more Div1 events pleasing both racers and recreational paddlers(perhaps).
And a third option expand Prem by including the top of Div1 as it stands (what ever the top of Div1 is?). And likewise the top of div2 then becomes Div1 and so on. Making Div1 a truly recreational division.
Which opens another whole can of worms do we want a divisional system? ( I do, I think it’s a great motivator for the juniors) would we be better served by open events?
And back to so we are strapped for cash.
What else is happening to save money?
How much do artificial courses cost, I’ve heard some horrendous prices for Lee valley, Cardiff and the Tees barrage, they all make HPP sound like a real bargain.
Who looks after our interests in the BCU (sorry ECU, SCA , WCA & CANI (and doubly sorry not necessarily in that order)) and who are they accountable to.
And somebody please tell me I should not listen to baseless rumours, because I have heard we had to pay for television coverage of the European championships at HPP and that a sponsor was turned down who would cover the costs of the event?
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John Sturgess
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Gedling, Nottingham/Long Preston, North Yorkshire
This attempt to divide divisions into ‘racing’ and ‘developmental’ is in my view not only a red-herring, but a dangerous red herring; because people then use the classification to support different agendas. It’s like Sport England banging on for years about Excellence vs Participation as if it is an either/or issue, when it is a symbiotic relationship: each benefits the other and benefits from the other.
All divisions are racing divisions: paddlers go there to race. All divisions are developmental divisions: paddlers develop as racers by racing. As a sport we need to ensure that all events are capable of fulfilling both functions appropriately.
As a paddler I did not develop very fast: I spent 17 years in the ‘old’ Div 3 (when there was a Div 5). But when the starter said ‘go’, I went!
The important distinction is not between ‘racing’ and ‘developmental’ but between racing on ‘proper slalom water’ and racing on the sort of water a paddler paddles on the way to ‘proper slalom water’. As things are set up at the moment, Prem and Div 1are raced on proper slalom water; Div 3 and Div 4 are not; and Div 2 comes somewhere in between.
As Coaches and Clubs we aim - or should aim - to get paddlers onto ‘proper slalom water’ as soon as possible: that is what they came into Slalom for, not to paddle on flat water. And if we are looking at a ‘2012 bounce’ we need to remember what all these enthusiastic recruits will have seen on TV, and decided that they want to do.
On average a ‘good’ club that begins the season with 10 new junior paddlers going to their first Div 4 after paddling through the winter expects in their first season to get maybe 1 into Div 1, certainly 5/6 into Div 2, 2 still in Div 3, and 2 have quit. The next year will see of that same 10 3 or 4 in Div 1 (slightly less if they are starting at age 9/10 rather than age 12/13), 3 or 4 in Div 2, and another 1 quitting without getting out of Div 3, or paddling very rarely and still in Div 3. Promotion rates with ‘good’ clubs in the South are the same up to Div 2, but fewer get up to Div 1 at that speed, reflecting lack of opportunity to train and race on rougher water.
I am afraid that where progression like this is not being achieved, we are as a sport, as coaches, and as clubs, failing to deliver what people, in particular children and young people, are entitled to get for their club subscriptions, entry fees, and BCU membership.
We tend as a sport to focus on the occasional child who goes up too fast, gets scared, and quits. There are far more who go up too slowly, get bored, and quit.
As a sport we do not have a recruitment problem, we have a retention problem. If the sport as a whole retained as well as the clubs with the largest junior sections, the sport would double in size in five years (and indeed, by focussing on clubs, Scotland has trebled its total of junior ranked paddlers in 4 years).
The evidence from research worldwide is that what keeps young people in sport is the feeling that they are getting better; from results, but even more so from being told by a coach who knows them, who they see on a regular basis, who they trust, that they are getting better. The second biggest factor is the social one of training and competing with the same group at their club, and getting to know them well.
All divisions are racing divisions: paddlers go there to race. All divisions are developmental divisions: paddlers develop as racers by racing. As a sport we need to ensure that all events are capable of fulfilling both functions appropriately.
As a paddler I did not develop very fast: I spent 17 years in the ‘old’ Div 3 (when there was a Div 5). But when the starter said ‘go’, I went!
The important distinction is not between ‘racing’ and ‘developmental’ but between racing on ‘proper slalom water’ and racing on the sort of water a paddler paddles on the way to ‘proper slalom water’. As things are set up at the moment, Prem and Div 1are raced on proper slalom water; Div 3 and Div 4 are not; and Div 2 comes somewhere in between.
As Coaches and Clubs we aim - or should aim - to get paddlers onto ‘proper slalom water’ as soon as possible: that is what they came into Slalom for, not to paddle on flat water. And if we are looking at a ‘2012 bounce’ we need to remember what all these enthusiastic recruits will have seen on TV, and decided that they want to do.
On average a ‘good’ club that begins the season with 10 new junior paddlers going to their first Div 4 after paddling through the winter expects in their first season to get maybe 1 into Div 1, certainly 5/6 into Div 2, 2 still in Div 3, and 2 have quit. The next year will see of that same 10 3 or 4 in Div 1 (slightly less if they are starting at age 9/10 rather than age 12/13), 3 or 4 in Div 2, and another 1 quitting without getting out of Div 3, or paddling very rarely and still in Div 3. Promotion rates with ‘good’ clubs in the South are the same up to Div 2, but fewer get up to Div 1 at that speed, reflecting lack of opportunity to train and race on rougher water.
I am afraid that where progression like this is not being achieved, we are as a sport, as coaches, and as clubs, failing to deliver what people, in particular children and young people, are entitled to get for their club subscriptions, entry fees, and BCU membership.
We tend as a sport to focus on the occasional child who goes up too fast, gets scared, and quits. There are far more who go up too slowly, get bored, and quit.
As a sport we do not have a recruitment problem, we have a retention problem. If the sport as a whole retained as well as the clubs with the largest junior sections, the sport would double in size in five years (and indeed, by focussing on clubs, Scotland has trebled its total of junior ranked paddlers in 4 years).
The evidence from research worldwide is that what keeps young people in sport is the feeling that they are getting better; from results, but even more so from being told by a coach who knows them, who they see on a regular basis, who they trust, that they are getting better. The second biggest factor is the social one of training and competing with the same group at their club, and getting to know them well.