Having taken my son to the Vets and Under 16 British Champs for the first time (intentionally) at Llandysul I was left wondering what the intention of the event was.
I am sure that I have seen some discussion of this before on here but cannot find it so have started an new one.
Just in case my comments/observations are misconstrued as sour-grapes, I have no "axe to grind" - my son won his age group and I did not enter the Vets (too slow/lazy, there was a shortage of judges, my boat was too light/short, I had to revise for some exams, water was too big….. etc).
The question that I have not been able to resolve in my mind is who this competition is supposed to be for?
i.e. is it designed to attract the best British Under 16's and over 35s in the country or is it to give "lower" ranked paddlers the chance to win an annual prize not available at any other competition?
My comments on here are going to be extremely biased to the K1M as I do not really follow the other events that closely (neither I nor my son can pass ourselves off as women nor do we enjoy only having half a paddle).
Based upon this year's results it could be argued that, using current rankings after HPP, some of the best British Juniors won the prizes.
e.g. K1M
Top Ranked "Under 15" - Won U16
Top Ranked "Under 14" - Won U14
2nd Ranked "Under 13" - Won U13
2nd Ranked "Under 12" - Won U12
(NB "Under 14" = 14th b'day in 2011, "Under 13" = 13th B'day in 2011 etc - not necessarily under 14 on 01/01/2011)
On the face of it looks reasonable if the objective is to reward the best paddlers in Britain.
However, the highest ranked under 16 taking part is currently 7th in the UK. With the bizarre situation that the fastest under 16 (on 01/01/2011) was the "Under 14" prize winner – no prem U16 took part.
Within the Men’s K1 vets it was similar, with none of the Prem Vets taking part.
From what I remember of the Womens K1 this was slightly better as there were at least some (2/3?) prem paddlers in the U16 - must be because women are naturally more intelligent than men and do not need to revise for exams (?)
Observations/Suggestions for future U16/Vets British Champs (on the assumption that the idea is to attract the best British Paddlers), in order of importance:
a) avoid British GCSE/Equivalents exam/revision time of year
may explain lower number of Under 16 than might be expected
b) put race on in conjunction with a Div 1/2 rather than a Div 2/3 (or even Prem/Div1 weekend with the Div1 on a Sunday doubling up as the Junior/Vet Champs) – this would relieve the timing team of having to attend an extra event each year.
All K1 men winners are currently Div 1 paddlers and no Prem U16 took part.
I am guessing that the reason for it being held at a Div 2/3 are historical. Although I am new to the sport I often hear/read tales that “in my day” it used to take at least "x" years to get from Div5 to the then Div 1 and complete amazement from former paddlers to find that an "x" year child can get into Div 1 after just 2/3 years.
If 12-14 year olds are now in Div1 should we not be expecting the British Champs to be on this type of water?
If Div 2/3 paddlers and their coaches/parents know that there children are able to paddle this standard of water then they should be encouraged to take part as well – oops, I hope that I have not infringed on any copyright that John S might have over this sentence?
c) Publicity
Better this year than last year - we went to Llandysul this year partly because of the publicity on the Slalom UK Website (and partly to dispel the belief that my son has about Wales always being sunny). Last year we attended by accident as my son was already entered for the Div 2/3.
d) Enforcement of Boat Rules
This is probably linked in with point b) above.
As this was a 2/3, but with timing team, there was no weighing or even mention of the need to comply with boat rules.
I 100% accept that a Div2/3 does not need to enforce the weight/boat length rules - not necessary at this level. However if this event is to be a flagship event for talented junior British paddlers should it not be run under the rules as set out in the Slalom handbook – I am assuming that the Vets are experienced/wise enough to be aware of the rules?
I know that the quick response to this is that it is too time consuming to even perform random checks and that it is the paddler's responsibility to make sure that his boat conforms. However would it not be simpler to put out a warning before the competition and then to weigh/measure the boats of the current leader and 2nd place of every category and age group after 1st runs and then if the placings change after 2nd runs to weigh the revised 1st/2nd places?
I appreciate that this will not prevent anyone intentionally running a light boat and temporarily weighting it immediately after the run but at least everyone would be "on notice" that this was not acceptable. It would certainly pick up on any boats that did not meet the size criteria as it would be very hard to "adjust" your boat after each run!
e) Allocation of Age Category Prizes:
This year it was not possible to win the "Under 13" prize unless you actually have your 13th birthday in 2011 and this was similar for the "Under 15" prize. You could however still win the "Under 14" prize (or "Under 16" if you were an "Under 15").
However, if you had your 14th birthday in 2011 the only possible prize that you could win was the "Under 14". (similarly for "Under 12).
This year this gave rise to a situation after second runs where, for at least 2 paddlers, there really was not too much to race for.
i.e.
"Under 14" winner was ineligible for the Under 15/16 even though he was the faster competitor in the whole competition. He was so comfortably ahead compared to the Under 13 winner that he tried a demo boat for his second run!
"Under 13" winner did not have to worry about any Under 11/12's behind him as they were ineligible for that prize. Realistically he knew that he would not be able to make up the time to the "Under 14" winner and there was no incentive for him to beat any "Under 15/16'" as he was ineligible for those prizes. (unfortunately the other Div1 "Under 13" did not take part in the race).
I have put this point last as it is probably just the result of points a) to c). If these were resolved then the anomaly might not have occurred. However I still believe that it would be better to disregard the actual birthday in the race year and just assess all competitors on are they under X on 01/01/20YY so that an "under 12" can win the J16 prize (but just that prize) etc.
I believe that this is what happened last year at Fairnilee i.e. an “Under 12” was given the “Under 13” prize as he was the fastest Under 13. At least it might be a good idea to keep the rules consistent and communicated in advance (was communicated on the morning of the race – not sure at what point, possibly after 1st runs)
If, however, the intention of the even is to give the younger less experienced paddlers the chance to have the honour of being the "British Champ" then I would suggest the following:
a) make the event only open to Div 2/3 paddlers
b) keep the prize rules as they were this year at Llandysul
Admittedly I would have missed out on the excellent food laid on at the event as well as the extremes of the local weather - apparently it was lovely in Cardiff on Saturday (unless you were a Northampton Saints supporter).
Enjoyed the event/weekend though!
Great to see the SCA helping to get so many Div2/3 paddlers to the event despite the long journey - and there was I bemoaning the inconsequential 4 hour journey that I had - well done SCA (not meant in a patronising way).
(I think that I am safe from any backlash from this email as hopefully everyone else is like me and cannot be bothered to read such long posts)
British Champs - What is the objective of them?
Agree on several points, some of which I can't comment on as we weren't there.
However, the main reason at least one of us didn't go, was that having checked water levels on environment agency website, and having spoken to others who knew the course, the water for the race wasn't worth driving 7 hours for.
Would we drive such a distance for a credible British championship, held on championship water, with good paddler competition? Definitely.
As for the prizes - my son's comment was 'the fastest u16 should have u16 trophy' (and that's how it was last year, and how it is in divisional races) - so why the ringfencing?
However, the main reason at least one of us didn't go, was that having checked water levels on environment agency website, and having spoken to others who knew the course, the water for the race wasn't worth driving 7 hours for.
Would we drive such a distance for a credible British championship, held on championship water, with good paddler competition? Definitely.
As for the prizes - my son's comment was 'the fastest u16 should have u16 trophy' (and that's how it was last year, and how it is in divisional races) - so why the ringfencing?
Terryg wrote:Am I reading the results wrong, or was Danny the only Vet to take part in the Vets championships?
The other "Vets" are in the section "K1 MEN CHAMPIONSHIP NOT DIV 2 OR 3" as "MXX", so I think that the "Vets" results were something like:
Pete Atkinson
Andy Moore
Rob Graves
Horst Mayer
Ray Ponting
Steve Harratt
etc
Apologies if I have read the names/times wrong off the sheet but the prize giving room was so full of people I could not get in to see who actually won the prizes!
Ta Andrew, as i said made me chuckle,
Gary obvoiusly is British C1 Masters Champion 2011, and many congratulations to him. As I know paddling while adopting leg bending position more akin to Yoga should really be a young mans sport. At our age we should know better. But then hes youngster at just M40 ... I can can claim a few years on him and M45+
:p :laugh: 
Gary obvoiusly is British C1 Masters Champion 2011, and many congratulations to him. As I know paddling while adopting leg bending position more akin to Yoga should really be a young mans sport. At our age we should know better. But then hes youngster at just M40 ... I can can claim a few years on him and M45+
:p :laugh: 
Andy
(D1 K1 1981, D2 C1&C2 2010)
(D1 K1 1981, D2 C1&C2 2010)
They are not Vets. There are two seperate categories. Vets and Masters. The Vets have their own league that is seperate from the divisional tables.AndrewG wrote:Terryg wrote:Am I reading the results wrong, or was Danny the only Vet to take part in the Vets championships?
The other "Vets" are in the section "K1 MEN CHAMPIONSHIP NOT DIV 2 OR 3" as "MXX", so I think that the "Vets" results were something like:
Pete Atkinson
Andy Moore
Rob Graves
Horst Mayer
Ray Ponting
Steve Harratt
etc
Apologies if I have read the names/times wrong off the sheet but the prize giving room was so full of people I could not get in to see who actually won the prizes!
Yep .. confused. its hard enough to remember how old i am, gave up counting a while back ... let along work all this out.Terryg wrote:Confused?
How about rationalising both Vets and Masters into a "grumpy league".
4 classes and you can nominate which you fit into:
1/ Bit miffed
2/ Grumpies
3/ Really Narked
4/ 'outh today!
Simpler? :p
Andy
(D1 K1 1981, D2 C1&C2 2010)
(D1 K1 1981, D2 C1&C2 2010)
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Vets are those clever enough to realise that they can opt out of the divisions and play with themsleves (OO ER MISSUS) with out risk of demotion
Masters are those who have not mastereds counting to their age without the help of two friends, so still compete in the main ranking divisions against the yoofs, and are then eligible for masters (aka old gits) prizes.
Help or are you a master?
Masters are those who have not mastereds counting to their age without the help of two friends, so still compete in the main ranking divisions against the yoofs, and are then eligible for masters (aka old gits) prizes.
Help or are you a master?
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points