Div 4 eligibility and harmonisation of rules

slink · Post by **slink** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:43 pm

Sorry, but that does imply to me that you cannot take their word for it i.e. you don't trust them.

Well, I have to say, based on the rules and protest system I have, we don't (as paddlers) promote ourselves well on this. How many times have you heard someone come to control & admit a hit or miss, as against how many times you have heard coaches (some of whom wearing NGB clothing) or children saying "well, I got away with that!". People do admit errors (I did at Lee Valley, for example!), but more people don't.

I also think there used to be (and may still be) an issue, at certain events, of paddlers previously promoted to div 3 recompeting at div 4 at the same event the following year.

This would tend to reinforce the point too...

Dishonesty, unsportsmanlike behaviour, not knowing the rules, whatever - but if the rule applied to everybody, it removes a huge amount of ambiguity.

We've still not answered the point about how long is div 4 valid for, which is the real issue here, not whether I trust my fellow competitors or not... Can I enter div 5(!) C2 next year even though I am div 2 K1, as I competed at Stratford in 1994(ish!)?

At which stage most of the returns become redundant, slink.

Woohoo

Anne · Post by **Anne** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:28 pm

All clubs are able to put in motions to the ACM - not just for changes but if they feel something in the rules needs clarity or rewriting so easier to understand.

as often happens those on the committee who have been in the sport for many years can easily take thing as read and do not necessarily see any confusion.

So if something is an issue you CAN do something about it!

It makes our lives much easier when a wider audience is proactive!

slink · Post by **slink** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:39 pm

All clubs are able to put in motions to the ACM - not just for changes but if they feel something in the rules needs clarity or rewriting so easier to understand.

Anne, thanks for raising this, the info is on page 192 of the 2011 Yearbook for those who are searching!

Neil H · Post by **Neil H** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:10 pm

For me, I'd say John, Colin and Dee have said it all

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:48 pm

ps motions must be submitted to the secretary (ME!!) by 27 October, signed by two members of CE, SCA, CW, or CANI as representing the views of a club. There will be a delay in responding to questions as I probably will be away from my email for a while at the end of October.

PeterC · Post by **PeterC** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:37 pm

I agree wholeheartedly with John that the rules applied at the lower divisions are not a paragon of clarity and this is indeed where they should be.

There is clearly something that could do with improvement and we are not frozen in aspic so here goes (I am hoping for a cake from CP BTW, but not with vegetables other than carrot in):

You cannot compete in Div 3 (or higher) unless a full member of BCU, SCA, WCA, CANI etc. If someone is an individual member then it is likely that the level at which they are operating in a floaty pointy thing is likely to be better than the average newby that we are trying to entice into the sport at Div 4 level and possibly should start at Div 3, if they want to, although should clearly also be allowed to start at Div 4 if they want. In C2 both paddlers need to be full members to compete at Div 3 or above and thus if they are not should be competing only at Div 4 unless already promoted.

This might be a bit easier to understand for both organisers and competitors.

I am now going off to find a deep dark cavern to hide in.

slink · Post by **slink** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:09 pm

Nice start Peter, but at Alva at the weekend we had Stirling CC and CR Cats slalom boats and demo Omegas available for those that wanted to use them, so most people were in pointy boats.

The danger of allowing paddlers to start at div 3 should they choose is killing div 4...would anyone voluntarily start lower than they are able? Youngsters might as their coaches / parents / teachers may tell them to, but I can't see youths doing that - I may be wrong, it's a few years since I was one of them (have now applied for my bus pass bib for 2012!).

The whole C2 argument is based on if the paddlers are already ranked, in which case they must be full members of a home nation anyway...

carealto · Post by **carealto** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:08 am

slink wrote:On the flip side, my daughter and 2 other CR Cats paddlers were div 2 K1, raced div 4 C1 and got promoted. At the next event, they raced div 3 C1 and got 1000 points both days. Last weekend, they entered div 3 C1, and got 1000 points, so they're now div 2 C1. The book says for C1 you need to be "higher than division 2" in any category before you must enter div 3...by those results, they should have entered div 2 C1 whilst they were in div 2 kayak!

I wouldn't like to think the rules were written around this situation. Alex and the other 2 paddlers had presumably spent some time paddling C1s, even if they hadn't entered any events. They are evidently among the group who should have done some judges runs (or been offered a Seedy Paddler refund of their div 4 entries) and submitted times to ne appropriately ranked.

Contrast this with the situation where someone at a double div 3/4 event gets promoted to div 2 in K1 on Saturday, but has rarely, if ever, paddled C1 (or C2) and never received any coaching in this discipline. In this situation it is, in my view, entirely appropriate that they enter div 4 (as the rules permit). I would contest that div 4 C2 would also be an appropriate event for this person with a partner of a similar standard - but this is not permitted if this is a new partnership (but, oddly, if they have paddled C2 together before and have some experience in the discipline- in div 4 -they can).

slink · Post by **slink** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:21 am

Alex and the other 2 paddlers had presumably spent some time paddling C1s, even if they hadn't entered any events.

Yes, they had paddled C1 a small number of times, but I think their K1 experience (on the same water) significantly contributed to their C1 times.

If you look at the ranking list for div 3 C1W, the number of 3000 point promotions this year is very high...and a lot of them without a 4th result, indicating the girls are getting 1000 points at every event they enter...
I am not suggesting a change to the C1 rules, as from an organiser's point of view they're easy to understand, and as all 3 girls had similar times they were probably paddling in the correct division, but it may be that the committee want to look at it from the aspect of the number of 3 event promotions and consider tweaking the div 3 C1W timing "fudge factor"...

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:12 am

slink wrote:I am not suggesting a change to the C1 rules, as from an organiser's point of view they're easy to understand, and as all 3 girls had similar times they were probably paddling in the correct division, but it may be that the committee want to look at it from the aspect of the number of 3 event promotions and consider tweaking the div 3 C1W timing "fudge factor"...

I'm not sure that is needed...

Of the girls that have been promoted from Div 3- Div 2 this year there are the following trends:

All but 7 paddled C1 last year (at the very minimum - I have not checked previous years) so they have all had experience in the division.

Of the 7 that didn't have rankings last year all but 2 are ranked in Div 1/P in the K1 event (though some were only promoted to the respective division this year).

The final 2 are both very highly ranked in Div 2 and are likely to get promoted this season (if they keep racing).

Of all those that got up in 3 events alone all but 1 is in Div 1 K1W and the other is a top ranked Div 2.

Therefore, it seems like the "fudge factor" is allowing those girls that probably should be in Div 2 in the C1 to get there without being held back and providing a challenge for others.

carealto · Post by **carealto** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:47 am

slink wrote:... but it may be that the committee want to look at it from the aspect of the number of 3 event promotions and consider tweaking the div 3 C1W timing "fudge factor"...

Not wishing to take anything away from the girls' achievement, I note that the times involved are all on their "home" course (which presumably they spend practicing on and which is, I understand, pretty "flat" for a div 3/4 course).

My daughter loved much preferred paddling div 2/3 events to 3/4 courses while she was in div 3 K1. However, they were nearly always inquorate (another problem in itself - is it just me or are there far fewer inquorate div3 women's classes in 3/4 events than 2/3s?) and she struggled to make good points against the men's K1 times. However, her winning time at Oughtibridge on Saturday would have got her 1000 points if compared (with 1.12 factor) against the K1M times.

slink · Post by **slink** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:56 pm

I don't know the answer, and I don't know the goals of the committee with numbers of promotions / divisions / regions, which is why I already stated that I am not proposing a change, but there have been 20 promotions, 10 of which have been achieved with 3 lots of 1000 points, and 7 of those have been from only 3 events.

I personally wouldn't regard 17th "a top ranked div 2 paddler", nor would I consider her likely to get promoted this season, but hopefully she will attain div 1 next year.

I can't speak about those from Forth / Viking / Manchester who achieved their 3 event promotions, but yes, the CR Cats / Stirling girls achieved it on their home course, where we train 2 or 3 times a week in their primary discipline (i.e. K1). I don't think any of them paddle C1 regularly (by that I mean more than once every couple of months), and some not at all other than the events.

I think perhaps it shows that time spent paddling in other classes & gaining race experience does make a difference...

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:40 pm

slink wrote:I personally wouldn't regard 17th "a top ranked div 2 paddler", nor would I consider her likely to get promoted this season, but hopefully she will attain div 1 next year.

She is also not yet shown on the ranking list as having been promoted so didn't feature in the calculations!

The ranking list shows 16 promotions which is what the observations were based on.

carealto · Post by **carealto** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:08 am

If you have previously been ranked, or you wish to try a different class, and you are in Division 2 or above in your main class, you must apply for Ranking Status before competing. DO NOT just start again in Division 4.

It appears that my argument for harmonisation and clarity has made it to the Canoe Slalom Website. The online form "Request for Reinstatement / Ranking in a Division other than Novice" contradicts rule B2.2 para 3 for C1 which states that any competitior "...ranked higher than Division 2 in any other category..." i.e. only those in div 1 or prem.

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:17 pm

Unfortunately this means the website is wrong.

The rules are as per year book (plus errata) until changed at teh committe meeting after the ACM.