Improving Canoe Slalom

[Neil H]

Interested to understand why this thread has started right now?

[Neil H]

I too read Brad’s opening comments re bias and initially winced as I wondered if it would provoke reaction. However, on taking a moment and rereading it I took it to be a more generic statement, trans-sport. Certainly if the decisions are more accurate then by definition they remove any possibility of bias or at least reduce it to a bare minimum.

As to whether our sport is lagging behind, simply because it’s the 21st Century, I think it probably must be. Be it in all the things that have been mentioned so often, cards, cheques et al or the matter raised here.

Certainly the kindness of volunteers is not to be sniffed, but we are all human. Positioning and environmental factors must play a part too. Most people have a limited attention span, arguably more so for younger people who get relied on to judge, which may or may not account for lack of attention. Throw in cold, rain (and worse) uncomfortable position, shouting, people looking over your shoulder/walking in front of you and visual distractions in your sightline and it’s a minefield.
Another failing of humans is that all of our sight differs greatly, both for gate and section judges. What you could see ten or two years ago might not be as clear now. It’s fact of life.
Can gate judges get it wrong, can sections judges get it wrong - well none of us can always be right.
I heard at a riverbank recently asking whether headsets could be an additional distraction for section judges. I don’t know about that I guess it depends what they are hearing or talking about. I believe they all know why they are there and act accordingly.

I do not know that video cameras angled anywhere from the bank would add any clarity.
I spent a short space of time with a parent at Tully watching negotiation of a single gate which was under protest. The parent was utterly convinced that there was no touch. I advised not to play and replay it as you could freak yourself out. I would say that to my eye the pole moved but it was near impossible to see a clear touch. Anyone who was there and knows how windy it was must surely wonder. As this was a down gate, and the pole on the opposite side to both section and gate judge, I don’t know how you could put hand on heart and not give benefit of doubt.

To me the only clear view is a different one - this is gonna sound out there - but down the length of the pole. I leave it to others to ridicule or otherwise the viability of this.
It is a parallel of a judge on a bridge looking down a pole though.

I would say it never hurts to have the options weighed/costed up, it is unlikely to cost anything.

On another note, I was with a parent of a Div 1 paddler at HPP yesterday who commented that she would happily chip in a tenner if it would provide technology to benefit the sport - this in direct relation to this thread.
I wonder if others would????????

The comment about children judging is a tough one, they can be responsible at times and then not (like adults), but they are all young - has anyone observed them sitting at judging positions in pairs or threes with friends? That’s probably not a good idea.

Tully must be a difficult course to judge - especially at the top. Usually at races you see a one or two decisions that make you wonder. I saw more than that at Tully and raised it at the time with a beleaguered Jury Chair (and a big well dome to him - run ragged springs to mind.)

I personally have put my hands up when I have made a mistake in past, it’s the right thing to do.

There is another element here that I have often thought about. It’s about a conflict I suppose. Most parents want their kids to be honest and try to dissuade them from dealing in untruths, (They they go to school and it all goes to nothing.) THAT’S A JOKE!
I can’t count how many times I have stood on a river bank and heard a parent or paddler say something like (you got away with a touch/fifty there but you got one at the last race you shouldn’t have so it all balances out.
What messages are we giving out here?
Touches are hard to define, which is what this thread is about in part, but 50’s not so much.
I recall once, in the days when I could still lean back far enough to neck a gate, that I was off line and had to lean back to attempt to get in - I knew I wasn’t though and to take away any ambiguity for the judge I kissed the bottom of the pole.
It still makes me chuckle to think that some poor old judge had to write down - paddler kissed bottom of pole. I remember hearing them laugh though.

Yeah as MikeR says, this is emotive stuff, that can go off track

Prohibitive/expensive/difficult - might be worth checking it out to see how far the tech has moved on

I'm tempted to have a go at modelling my cheap alternative, maybe at one of my club's races. I'm sure I can cobble a few old digital cameras cameras together, it's just getting other people's approval, and working out how to power them!

It’d be interesting to know if you do

I can totally see everybodies view point here, not least Peter’s who makes soem valid points re practicality and nto wanting to be the firts

Perhaps we should charge the poles up to a high voltage and then measure charge drop when a pole is touched. The sparks might help give the touches away! It could probably be done without electrocuting the paddlers but couldn't detect a missed gate or a half head etc.

Hilarious, what about copper wire strands running from the paddlers helmet and body, that might get it

However I might be wrong, I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be trialled by someone who is enthusiastic about it.
I’d agree with that.

Finally, I think that this forum is exactly the place to discuss this kind of thing. The most important people in the sport are the young paddlers, and they are also the most likely to come up with new ideas and ways of doing things. The committee has its very important place in the structure of the sport, but on the whole committees are not very effective at introducing change in any walk of life. And generally young people do not get involved in committees.

It may be that some things are aired on the forum that some people would prefer to be kept out of the public gaze, but there is rarely a good reason for this. However contributors to the forum do have to consider that this is a public forum when writing their post.

This is an excellent thread by the way.

And I agree with all that too but would add that even some adults shy away from committees as the politics can be wearing. Committees generally need doers but doers can be strong willed thus putting people off

I think it’s a great thread too

Ps - In a previous incarnation I might have brought up trained beavers wearing headcams but those days are long gone.
It also occurs that, in these days of paranoia, we could let drop over the mobile that Al Qaeda are holding mass training camps around the country to train up their operatives in boat based assault.
That way you’d soon have the full might of the American NSA - beaming their satellites down on top of you - which is just viewpoint we want
But New Neil wouldn’t say this either

[boatmum]

thanks for the great posts folks.

Couple of thoughts as one who regularly sits on the side of a course as a section and gate judge and who has also refereed at fast moving judo competitions and at swimming galas. In both of these other disciplines there are many observations to be made concerning illegal holds,throws, moves illegal strokes, pool end touches, dives, number of strokes under the water etc etc. All happening in split seconds and requiring focus and concentration.

My point is there are many sporting dsciplines in the 21 century that rely on human observation for judging purposes and have resisted the use of video evidence for many of the reasons that have been well argued in this thread.

So we are not lagging behind when compared with other sporting disciplines.

Clearly we need the judging to be as accurate as possibe and for that to happen we need more qualified gate and section judges.

Whether young people do or dont focus when gate judging depends, like most things, on the individual in my experience.I have worked with quite young gate judges who were absolutely fantastic and I have worked with adults who have frankly been terrible and vice versa, so I dont think you can generalise.

I have also been on the recieving end of abuse from paddler parents, coaches and older paddlers.

There are clearly many people out there who know the rules, so what would be great would be if more folk take the judges exams (specially parents) so that we can increase the number of eyes judging at events which has to help the situation.

[oldschool]

Alternatively drop the pole heights lower and lets see who is quickest through the gates when you can't neck you way down a course!!

non sarcastically power/ manpower / would be a major issue for our site, not to mention that the quality of a wide angle camera shot is not good enough to judge small touches.

As much as I have had issues in the past the judges do a good job and their word is final unless 2 judges disagree on the same section (protest time!!)

[Ray]

Copied from a 2009 posting of mine as I believe it still holds.

"I think the idea of video for appeals is a non-starter, for all but the highest levels, purely on the grounds of cost and practicability. Whilst I have no doubt the technology could be/already has been developed, the simple numbers make it all, in terms of cost and manpower, prohibitively expensive.

I believe you would need upstream and downstream views from both sides and also top down views per pole. This would be 6 cameras (as we would have to allow for 2 poles) per gate (the cameras may be able to cover more than one gate, but the poles need to be in focus and not too small)! Mutiply that up and for a 20 gate course that is 120 cameras.

Then you need spare cameras, batteries, spare batteries, multiple battery chargers, tripods/scaffolding, powerful/multiple computers, over 3 Terabytes of digital storage (over 2 hours of each video stream would need to be stored [uncompressed - i.e. 3.5MB per second and this would be much more if HD was used]), back up tapes (in case of communications problems and there would have to be enough for a full run's filming - assuming you could reuse these for each run) ... I.e. a very large amount of kit to be stored, maintained and transported round the country.

In terms of cost, by the time you ensure you have enough sets of these, the budget starts to soar (maybe the Olympic overspend isn't that big after all). If you then add in the requirement that the cameras themselves need to be higher speed than the standard (UK) 25fps video camera (as I think someone else mentioned earlier) and waterproof or in waterproof housings (ditto).

Of course, the cameras would need to be easily accessible in case of problems. This would need to be safe access to all the cameras - one can envision roped off access points. When it comes to the top down ones - would we have to climb out over the course or, which would cause further delays and problems, move the gate/support structure to get to them.

Finally just think of the manpower required to setup and dismantle the cameras each day (as they might develop legs otherwise) not to mention that required for changing tapes/batteries throughout the day. We struggle for enough gate judges at times - imagine if we needed a load more people!"

Back to the present: At 'Tully, I put in my first protest on my own behalf in nearly 14 years of slalom racing. I finished the race knowing I was dangerously close to a 50 on gate 5 and so was not altogether surprised to be given a 50. However, my memory was that I thought I had managed to get all my head in and so I protested. On appeal, both judges gave that I had not got all my head in and I fully accept that rejection (however frustrating that is as the rest of the run was very good [for my current rustiness and lack of fitness] and the second run was awful). I am sure, in hindsight, that a very large part of my belief, that I had got my whole head in, was wishful thinking. This wishful thinking was probably amplified by the fact that the rest of the run was 'good'. I would love to have been able to see that this was indeed the case, however, I am sure that from many camera angles, it would have been difficult to tell and much of this lack of certainty would have been due to the inherent nature of 2 dimensional video. A system where every pole had a down the pole camera would probably have left little room for doubt, however, I do not believe such a system is ever going to be doable in practice - never mind also providing the other views needed for other types of protest.

[BaldockBabe]

Back to the present: At 'Tully, I put in my first protest on my own behalf in nearly 14 years of slalom racing. I finished the race knowing I was dangerously close to a 50 on gate 5 and so was not altogether surprised to be given a 50. However, my memory was that I thought I had managed to get all my head in and so I protested. On appeal, both judges gave that I had not got all my head in and I fully accept that rejection (however frustrating that is as the rest of the run was very good [for my current rustiness and lack of fitness] and the second run was awful). I am sure, in hindsight, that a very large part of my belief, that I had got my whole head in, was wishful thinking. This wishful thinking was probably amplified by the fact that the rest of the run was 'good'. I would love to have been able to see that this was indeed the case, however, I am sure that from many camera angles, it would have been difficult to tell and much of this lack of certainty would have been due to the inherent nature of 2 dimensional video. A system where every pole had a down the pole camera would probably have left little room for doubt, however, I do not believe such a system is ever going to be doable in practice - never mind also providing the other views needed for other types of protest.

Ray, was that the amusing protest that came back saying that both judges had agreed it was a 1/2 head,but most amusinigly one of the judges stated that your beard failed to make the gate?!?!?! That was one of the best explainations I have seen since I started paddling!!!

[Neil H]

That makes it sound like Ray's beard is detachable. I don't imagine he'd thank people for testing the theory.
Ray - maybe you can do some C2 with your beard!!!!!

[PeterC]

Thanks for your comments Ray.

The idea of charging up the poles Neil was not totally tounge in cheek. In the Dim and distant past when I was considerably fitter we used electric circuits to help support the human judges in fencing when a touch may have been less than 100th of a second. Normal video frame rates would certainly not cover pole touches, they certainly are inadequate in fencing.

If the pole was at a high voltage then a touch would produce measurable drop in charge without needing any significant current flow through the paddler. It could not decide whether the beard had passed through the gate and would probably have an interesting effect on those trying to kiss the gate!

Personally I do not think that video is the answer we need but that does not mean we should not think about other potential solutions not necessarily replacements, but I am not a judge just an interested observer.

[Neil H]

Ahhh touche!

Gives whole new meaning to a kissing gate

My paddling was always shocking anyway

Joking aside It is a n interesting thread

Well done for all your hard work on Tully

[Ray]

It was the 'no beard' appeal! Now as to my beard doing C2 or even C1 - would certainly be a much lighter paddler!

[Dee]

Really not convinced about adding more electronic equipment. It is a rare race for there not to be a communication problem at some point in the procedings; usually resolved with a new headset and a runner. But if we are using cameras then what happens to any penalties on the associated gate when (and it is "when" not "if") one fails? Do all paddlers get a clear until the problem is resolved? Do we have to stop the race whilst the camera is fixed? Do previous bod's get overturned? How do we keep it fair to everyone?

Nice in principle, but not so sure about real life.