Tutty - just thoughts on the future

[roosmcd]

Another interesting project is TRAPS (the French system), which seems to have some significant updates since I last saw it:
http://www.traps-ck.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=project

(using auto-translate, it's French to me too)

" In France, the race management software is used FFCanoe developed by Agil IT for the French Federation of Canoeing . This application is used to manage the list of compétieurs, chronos and collect penalties and the rankings. For now, the application interfaces with TRAPS this software as it is developed in France and tested on racing in France. We are interested to offer interfaces with other management software running (eg those used in other countries). Do not hesitate to contact us about it!"

These would be android terminals with either communication via SMS or Wi-Fi.

[alan1nckc]

FM Wireless is such an obvious option, that I've thought about it several times over the decades. However it doesn't provide reliable comms. The most serious problem is lack of channels. Our slalom site is within half a mile of a large industrial estate, where lots of people are using "license free" radios, so every channel is already occupied.
Using licensed bands would avoid this problem, but would then require the operators to be licensed.

Wi-fi mesh sounds nice. However I'm not sure the cheap USB dongles are capable of connecting to multiple peers. Generally you need one of the smarter access points to be able to do that. As anyone who has had to support wireless networks will know, they aren't easy to make reliable (read expensive for the better hardware). Among other things that affect transmission are people standing in the transmission path, rain, trees, anything metal, coated window glass. Some of that sounds just like a river bank. Sites like Llangollen are likely to have problems caused by all the domestic networks, some of which will switch on and off during the day. Wireless-N with its longer range is already making this problem worse. The fundamental problem is that in the UK almost all equipment uses the 802.11B/G/N bands, and there are effectively only 3 non-overlapping channels. 802.11A has around 40 channels, but is rare in this country, and priced accordingly. It also has a shorter range.

RS232 serial data, using RS423 signalling levels, will work along many hundreds of metres of cheap cable. It isn't fast enough for voice, but fine for data. Cables are reasonably easy to lay, easy to fault-find, and don't generally suffer from interference. This would however involve a second cable for data. (You could use modem signalling mixed with the voice, but that would not be nice to listen to all day. Is it feasible to use very high frequencies, and filter, a bit like broadband and voice? I don't know.)

I like the idea of a small computer at each station for data work, collecting scores and transmitting, as long as real-time isn't required. Using the NTP time protocol would keep the internal clocks synchronized - it's designed to work with unpredictable delays between systems, so latency in a network wouldn't cause problems. Times would be captured locally and transmitted "when convenient".

A raspberry-pi uses around 500mA, more with anything connected to it. Good rechargeable AA cells are around 2000mAH capacity, so would not give more than 4 hours runtime. It would probably require D cells in practice, which is not impossible.

[MikeR]

FM Wireless is such an obvious option, that I've thought about it several times over the decades. However it doesn't provide reliable comms. The most serious problem is lack of channels. Our slalom site is within half a mile of a large industrial estate, where lots of people are using "license free" radios, so every channel is already occupied.

Wi-fi mesh sounds nice.

RS232 serial data, using RS423 signalling levels, will work along many hundreds of metres of cheap cable. It isn't fast enough for voice, but fine for data. Cables are reasonably easy to lay, easy to fault-find, and don't generally suffer from interference. This would however involve a second cable for data. (You could use modem signalling mixed with the voice, but that would not be nice to listen to all day. Is it feasible to use very high frequencies, and filter, a bit like broadband and voice? I don't know.)

FM would be very hard to implement, and would require lots of channels and hardware. The problem is, extra users can't just add their signal to the pile: they interfere catastrophically, and nothing of use gets received. The only way to implement it, would be to use a master mixer, which receives individual channels, for individual people, or a mixer at each box, which transmits it's own channel, and mixes in the required set.

AM however, does allow you to just add the signals - though it's important to keep the transmissions as close to "in phase" as possible. This is based on Amplitude however, and different amplitude signals, will sound louder, on different headsets. The amplitude of any signal will fall off, with proportion to the square of the distance between them; so this could only work over long distances. It is possible however, to use some slightly more complication transmission schemes for AM, in order to fit extra signals within an allotted bandwidth. SSBSC (Single SideBand, Suppressed Carrier) modulation can halve the bandwidth required, and things like QAM (Quadrature Amplitude Modulation) can be used to transmit two signals on the same carrier frequency, without interference.

Yes, it would be possible to use higher frequencies, but you would need a specially designed amplifier (which is perfectly easy to design, you just may struggle to buy one). However, the easiest way to do it, would probably be to just use AM to transmit the digital data, and just use resonant filters to select a range.

[carealto]

Just had a thought while walking the dog - obviously my forthcoming duties for the Tynedale slalom running through my head (how do we get enough volunteers for the murky depths of control)?

Nowadays most people walk around with a powerful web-enabled computer in their pocket, with Wi-Fi internet access (yes, I know lots of people think Wi-Fi coverage won't work for their event - but maybe it could - and wires aren't exactly reliable - who hasn't had their event delayed by comms problems with headsets, cabling etc with the Tutti?).

How about a web-based system running on a laptop PC. Judging points can be configured and gates allocated in advance (just set the number of judging points, the number of gates and allocate each gate A letter to correspond to the judging point). You could even have an intermediate split point. Judges are allocated a secure log-in (username and password) which takes them to a web-interface to their area (gates, start, finish) allowing them to input data directly to a web database.

A public web-interface could also be incorporated so that anyone can view the results at any stage.

Oh.. and the wifi coverage. We own a small caravan park, long (500m) and narrow (along a railway track which was closed over 60 years ago) - cuttings, embankments, and lined with large mature trees (it is quite straight and flat). We manage to run a Wi-Fi hotspot which runs all year round using two Wi-Fi repeaters - we can't cover it all from a single point, but the whole thing is reliable and provides comprehensive coverage (it may require a repeater reset once or twice a year).

Any takers for a software project?

[Mummsie]

TUTTI is very simple to use even for the technophobes amongs us and very easy to maintain. Usual reasons for failing is caused by the user, eg leaving headset plugged in and draining battery and pulling connections out using the wire and damaging. What ever is eventually decvided upon it needs to be robust, simple to use and simple to maintain.

[carealto]

As Mummsie says, any replacement needs to be easy to use - my suggestion could have an interface as easy to use as Simply Slalom. The only remotely difficult bit could be in the Wi-Fi setup when using repeaters - still not exactly hard (and probably not needed at all events). I suspect that even most people who claim to be technophobes can get most consumer devices to work with a "Quick Setup guide" and I'm sure that within each region some enthusist could be persuaded to write a dedicated set-up procedure for each course currently in use, if necessary.

I note that cheap Android Wi-Fi tablets are now available from about £35 (direct from China / Hong Kong) - these could be used as an alternative to mobile phones for data entry (or a few spares could be kept to replace phones with flat batteries etc) - I suspect that a headset and box would be much more expensive.

My experience of Tutti is that while it is fairly agricultural and simple in principle and easy to repair, there are a number of fairly fragile links (particularly the multi-pin plugs between boxes and headsets) which certainly caused me problems when I first used it. Yes, the problems are usually caused by the user by rough handling but human nature is such that rough handling will occur when stripping down cables etc after an event or unplugging boxes after a judging stint. It works fairly well with several people in control using entry cards passed along the table for times, penalties etc to be entered and totalled - labour intensive and open to transcription and addition errors. The data then has to be entered onto a PC to calculate results, points etc (more manpower, more potential for transcription errors). It requires dedicated unique hardware (expensive to design, build and replace) and requires a reasonable level of understanding from several of the team using it. It would be nice if a replacement didn't have the size and weight of Tutti too, not just the desk itself but all the accompanying cable spools, headsets etc required to run the event. And don't forget the size and weight of a substantial 12V battery (why no optional mains connection?)

[alan1nckc]

This is tempting fate, but...
At our last two or three slaloms Tutti has caused us no problem during the event. The reason is that, having collected it in advance, I spend a morning testing everything. Typically I find 3 or 4 intermittent connections which I then repair. The ones on the wires are easy. The ones on the headset connector need access to a soldering iron, which isn't something the majority of organisers will have. Occasionally I find a problem with the wire linking the two earpieces of the headset. This again is repairable, but is rather fiddly and again requires a soldering iron.
The remaining cause of intermittents is the split-pin plugs on the wires and headsets. If the pins have been closed up, usually by pulling them out at an angle, then the connection crackles. Spreading them, GENTLY, and just enough for a firm connection cures this. Removing mud from between the halves helps too.
I find it time well spent, as it makes a major difference to the stress levels in control during the event.

A riverbank is a hostile environment for anything electronic. The more complex the equipment, the more complex the faults that can develop. I am still of the opinion that a wired system will be more reliable, and more repairable, than anything relying on wireless. I say this having spent ten years maintaining wireless networks for schools, where expectations about performance and reliability can be quite unrealistic. Wireless should be the last resort when other methods are impractical, not the first choice.

[MikeR]

I'd personally say that simple analogue wireless schemes, such as FM or AM, aren't particularly unreliable at all - in terms of hardware - it's actually almost exactly the same as the wired equipment that we have already, with no wires to break!

I don't see any reason why the Wi-Fi scheme should be too much of a reliability issue either.

What is more of an issue with it is -
WiFi range.. sadly generally not enough for most courses
Touchscreens do not work in the slightest when wet
It's pretty easy for people to mess up elsewhere on android

[BaldockBabe]

Just a quick note - SIWIDATA who provide timing for the international events use wifi and this is not always effective. At Cardiff I understand that there were too many nearby networks that they could not use their keypads for the first year (not sure about the second year) and even at places such as Prague the start clock* went down because the wifi did...

*note this is the countdown clock and not the beam timer as the beam timer is wired in.

[carealto]

MikeR - WiFi range is really not difficult to achieve - using suitable equipment. Its no good to expect a normal domestic grade access point or router with a cheap antenna to perform wonders. Oh.. and Tochscreens in the wet - have you ever used a pencil and paper in the rain
My own outdoor wifi setup covers a distance of around 500m - in a long narrow strip (a caravan park on a former section of railway line) with embankments, cuttings and trees. It needs the odd reboot (possibly once a year) and is available 24/7. Directional wifi equipment is used for links of several kilometers - though these require a good, clear line of sight and would not be easy to set up quickly on a river bank

BaldockBabe - the problems of courses in permanent centres close to other businesses and residents are different from those at most slaloms. Nottingham have ducts with wires for the Tutti - these could presumably have network cables installed. Newer artificial courses don't seem to have made any provision for wiring - perhaps they assumed wireless was the future?
The interference from other systems can, of course, be improved by using directional antennae and better equipment, albeit with a bit more setup time to get things aimed correctly. On most riverbanks I would prefer a well set-up wifi system to anything with wires linking judging points and control - unless the wires are in underground ducts.

[BaldockBabe]

Several points to note:

Nottingham - yes it is wired but the ducting regularly floods. Anything that gets wired in would have to be able to withstand flooding and not just occassional flooding.

Secondly - as has been said a number of times any system has to be easy to use and not just by people who are comfortable in setting up wifi systems etc. I am more than capable of setting up the outdoor kit used by the timing team but wouldn't go anywhere near the wifi system at home!

[CeeBee]

One thing to consider in all of this is that whatever replaces Tutti needs to be 100% reliable, robust, designed to last, easy to use and also inexpensive. Whatever we spend on technology needs to be funded from the administration element of the entry fees.

In Scotland, we get about £3000 from the administration element of Scottish event entries.

This money is used to fund anything required to support slalom in Scotland such as the £500 lease for Grandtully riverbank, new bibs, laptops to run events, replacement parts for Tutti. So if a replacement Tutti system was £6,000, it would use a minimum of 2 years worth of money.

It would be great to have all the latest technology but it comes at a price which has to be passed onto the paddler.

[MikeR]

MikeR - WiFi range is really not difficult to achieve - using suitable equipment.

It's actually possible with normal home equipment - with the right modifications, you can boost the majority of routers to transmit several times the power. The problem is more that Tablet/Phone receivers aren't great, & legality issues with boosting the power vs cost of professional outdoor equipment. I'm probably mainly thinking along the lines of Washburn though in terms of length, but it's just one race, and there's probably less interference there!


This is all a bit airy-fairy here - we can discuss this 'til the cows come home. If we wanted to do something we have to actually commission somebody to design it/do the research. We'd still have to decide what we want though!

[TonyO]

The old kit has stood the test of time. Are the circuit diagrams and designs available for clubs to try and replicate the system but update with the benefits of newer lightweight and relatively cheap headsets and better connectors. If clubs can build their own they are likely to be better maintained and better understood by the users and the cabling can be more permanently installed at the venues. Would be interested in having a go if the circuit diagrams and parts lists are still available.