Just thinking about a tutty replacement and throwing some ideas around. Apologies for any IT geek speak. I will try and keep it simple = but probably fail!
Recently a small computer called the rasberry pi has come about, it costs $25 (yes thats right 25 US dollars even though its a UK product). It can be run off 4 AA batteries.
It leads me to think it might be possible to use these as a replacement for the current comms gear.
Further investigation/thinking I can see possibly using VOIP (voice over IP) to communicate.
If it would work work I would forsee the following.
Computer in control to run VOIP system (might/should be possible on a pi), each judge has a pi with a usb headset, powered by rechargeable batteries.
A meshed wireless network is used so that each headset box forms part of the wireless network so even though the furthest judge might be 300m from control their box only has to be able to talk to the next nearest box (or the one after that if one fails). A single or even multiple failure should not cause an issue.
Control can then setup which judges they speak to by initiating a conference call.
Judges have no control, they simply switch on the unit and plug in the headset, wait for it to 'ring' and answer via button on headset. They can as now talk to control and the other judges on their line (conference call) as they do now.
As always I am sure there are many disadvantages but IF the above system could work I can see some benefits.
Cheap consumer hardware (PI $25, headset £18)
No wires to run or break, get wet, transport etc.
Simple to use (as per current system)
Modular concept (as per current system)
Possible future possibilites to expand system to input touches
Possible future possibilites to expand system to use it for manual timing/timing beams
As with the current system spare headsets to be carried and spare pi's (turry boxes) anything fails just swop out another unit.
Master controlling unit would only be different in it has a keyboard, screen and mouse, if it fails pick up one of the spare units and plud in a different USB stick.
As I say just idling tossing some thoughts around.
I'm sure someone is already looking at this and I'm sure it won't be without its issues but could be worth pursuing?
Tutty - just thoughts on the future
Re: Tutty - just thoughts on the future
We've been discussing pretty much the same thing around the dinner table (yes, I know most would not consider this normal, but in our household the conversation always turns to technical possibilities sooner rather than later). Although the pi is very cheap, you would need to factor in some peripheral stuff (not least of which would be a reasonably sturdy (water proof?) box. We've also considered using pies linked together as a basis for timing and recording of penalties etc, but so far has not got beyond our dinner chatter.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
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djberriman
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Re: Tutty - just thoughts on the future
True it would require some sort of waterproof case (a standard pi case is £10) and a USB wireless dongle (£5) per unit.
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djberriman
- Posts: 806
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Re: Tutty - just thoughts on the future
hmm problem with a waterproof case is getting rid of the heat created by the unit..... water cooling perhaps!
Re: Tutty - just thoughts on the future
I had a few thoughts on this after spending hours debugging the lines at Washburn, and I'm off to do an Electronic Engineering degree, so maybe this could be a project for in the future.
I personally would go with a completely different set up for headsets etc. There's no need for hardware anywhere near as powerful as the Raspberry Pi, all you're using it for is to drive the networking and sound processing. Less powerful hardware could be used, which will drain the batteries less, cost less, and not have heat issues in a waterproof case.
My idea would actually be to use FM transmitters & receivers.
There are several advantages to using this:
-Greater range, standard Walkie Talkies have a range of around 3km
-less latency (delay between people talking & being heard)
-lower power requirements
Walkie Talkies have a range of around 3km, which is easily sufficient for any slalom course, and we may find there is something suitable straight out of the box, that we are able to plug headphones into, etc. Otherwise, purpose built hardware would not be too difficult to make (I could go and design it this evening). This would also have the advantage that it could be designed to do other things, eg, allowing Start & Finish to view which timers are set, and can choose which to start & stop. Any data can be sent by using multiple channels (one for voice, one for start signals/stop signals/data) or a time division multiplex (where digital data is sent in specific time slots).
We also then have the obvious option of being able to choose the type of batteries to use, and to put many batteries in parallel, to increase battery life.
The Tutti itself could also be redesigned, to take all the data automatically, and to be much smaller, cheaper, and more portable.
I personally would go with a completely different set up for headsets etc. There's no need for hardware anywhere near as powerful as the Raspberry Pi, all you're using it for is to drive the networking and sound processing. Less powerful hardware could be used, which will drain the batteries less, cost less, and not have heat issues in a waterproof case.
My idea would actually be to use FM transmitters & receivers.
There are several advantages to using this:
-Greater range, standard Walkie Talkies have a range of around 3km
-less latency (delay between people talking & being heard)
-lower power requirements
Walkie Talkies have a range of around 3km, which is easily sufficient for any slalom course, and we may find there is something suitable straight out of the box, that we are able to plug headphones into, etc. Otherwise, purpose built hardware would not be too difficult to make (I could go and design it this evening). This would also have the advantage that it could be designed to do other things, eg, allowing Start & Finish to view which timers are set, and can choose which to start & stop. Any data can be sent by using multiple channels (one for voice, one for start signals/stop signals/data) or a time division multiplex (where digital data is sent in specific time slots).
We also then have the obvious option of being able to choose the type of batteries to use, and to put many batteries in parallel, to increase battery life.
The Tutti itself could also be redesigned, to take all the data automatically, and to be much smaller, cheaper, and more portable.
Re: Tutty - just thoughts on the future
We actually already have, an (as far as I know) decent electronic timing system, used by the timing team. How does this work?
Re: Tutty - just thoughts on the future
Greetings from Holland!
Nice to hear some people are thinking about development, but there are some ideas in your posts that I'm very much against
. Also I'm not familiar with the "Tutti" , I'm assuming this is the system used in the UK for smaller "club" events? And the Siwidata/Alge system would then be used in the bigger events.
The reason for cabling is that it works. Yes, you can setup a wi-fi mesh network and get it working during tests but what will happen in a competition? Somebody nearby could have their access point misconfigured, or maybe bought on of those cheap wireless video links and bring down the wi-fi network. In Holland we have a system with wireless scoring terminals, Siwidata also uses wi-fi for data input; most of the times it works but not always. There are occasions when you just can't get a terminal to work properly. So if you're using wi-fi for communication instead of walkie-talkies, your communication will not work either.... In my opinion these should be seperated, walkie-talkies cost 20UKP for a pair here so a PI would actually be more expensive....
Start/finish signal can be done via wireless, but it's not straightforward. Well, it depends on how accurate you want it to be. Alge has a system http://www.alge-timing.com/alge/TED-01-E.htm which replaces a start-finish line and I see they also have a new one http://www.alge-timing.com/alge/downloa ... WTN-PE.pdf. Seeing the problems they had at the last competition I visited getting wi-fi to work properly across the entire course, I wouldn't use this for timing (you don't know if it will be working at the exact time you have a start or finish). Another option is to use synchronized clocks at both the start and fnish and then compare the two times to get a run result. Sending of the results doesn't have to be realtime anymore, so you can use wireless, ethernet, walkie-talkie of just send somebody down the course with a bit of paper if everything else fails. The Alge Timy device has an option for GPS synchronisation, but you can also connect a button to an input on two devices and synchronise them that way.
Nice to hear some people are thinking about development, but there are some ideas in your posts that I'm very much against
. Also I'm not familiar with the "Tutti" , I'm assuming this is the system used in the UK for smaller "club" events? And the Siwidata/Alge system would then be used in the bigger events.The reason for cabling is that it works. Yes, you can setup a wi-fi mesh network and get it working during tests but what will happen in a competition? Somebody nearby could have their access point misconfigured, or maybe bought on of those cheap wireless video links and bring down the wi-fi network. In Holland we have a system with wireless scoring terminals, Siwidata also uses wi-fi for data input; most of the times it works but not always. There are occasions when you just can't get a terminal to work properly. So if you're using wi-fi for communication instead of walkie-talkies, your communication will not work either.... In my opinion these should be seperated, walkie-talkies cost 20UKP for a pair here so a PI would actually be more expensive....
Start/finish signal can be done via wireless, but it's not straightforward. Well, it depends on how accurate you want it to be. Alge has a system http://www.alge-timing.com/alge/TED-01-E.htm which replaces a start-finish line and I see they also have a new one http://www.alge-timing.com/alge/downloa ... WTN-PE.pdf. Seeing the problems they had at the last competition I visited getting wi-fi to work properly across the entire course, I wouldn't use this for timing (you don't know if it will be working at the exact time you have a start or finish). Another option is to use synchronized clocks at both the start and fnish and then compare the two times to get a run result. Sending of the results doesn't have to be realtime anymore, so you can use wireless, ethernet, walkie-talkie of just send somebody down the course with a bit of paper if everything else fails. The Alge Timy device has an option for GPS synchronisation, but you can also connect a button to an input on two devices and synchronise them that way.
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djberriman
- Posts: 806
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Re: Tutty - just thoughts on the future
Problems with radios (especially cheap ones) is only one person can talk at once and also people have to key to talk, great thing about tutty is everyone can talk at the same time and there is nothing to press. So anything that replaces tutty must offer that sort of functionality.
Cheap radios can also be bought by the public so you may get interfefence from them.
Whatever we did use would have to allow control and judges to talk at same time (if only to tell someone to be quiet!)
As for timing, timing is just a matter of recording the time (by button press, timing beam or whatever) it is triggered, transmitting it is not time dependent so minor breaks in the network connectivity are not a major issue. Clocks can be synched quite easily and continually.
My reasoning behind say using a pi is the same kit could be used for timing, control, and judges (for talking and recording touches). So you have only one piece of kit to buy and they can be swopped as required if one breaks. Thus costs for rdeundancy, breakages, faults etc are low as it is the same modular device in use.
I'm unsure other wireless networks would cause an issue bearing in mind the distance between each unit would be a few feet (using a single access point a few hundred metres away would cause issues).
Wires are great and in general work, trouble is they take a lot of time to put out (and then sometimes have to be lifted and put out again if required and for the 2nd day of a 2 day event) and get back in. They are also subject to breakages due to being misused or tripped over etc and general wear and tear.
Not saying the above would work but just thinking about how we might go about it at lower level, if anyone has any great ideas which are cheap and would work then I'm all for them.
Overall tutty works quite well still but think we should be looking to replace it eventually.
Cheap radios can also be bought by the public so you may get interfefence from them.
Whatever we did use would have to allow control and judges to talk at same time (if only to tell someone to be quiet!)
As for timing, timing is just a matter of recording the time (by button press, timing beam or whatever) it is triggered, transmitting it is not time dependent so minor breaks in the network connectivity are not a major issue. Clocks can be synched quite easily and continually.
My reasoning behind say using a pi is the same kit could be used for timing, control, and judges (for talking and recording touches). So you have only one piece of kit to buy and they can be swopped as required if one breaks. Thus costs for rdeundancy, breakages, faults etc are low as it is the same modular device in use.
I'm unsure other wireless networks would cause an issue bearing in mind the distance between each unit would be a few feet (using a single access point a few hundred metres away would cause issues).
Wires are great and in general work, trouble is they take a lot of time to put out (and then sometimes have to be lifted and put out again if required and for the 2nd day of a 2 day event) and get back in. They are also subject to breakages due to being misused or tripped over etc and general wear and tear.
Not saying the above would work but just thinking about how we might go about it at lower level, if anyone has any great ideas which are cheap and would work then I'm all for them.
Overall tutty works quite well still but think we should be looking to replace it eventually.
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BaldockBabe
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:55 am
Re: Tutty - just thoughts on the future
I am not a technical wizz and have no idea how the system I use each week works - I press a button and/ or use a computer and everything magically happens for me.
However, there are a few points from my point of view that would need to be taken into account:
1. The system would need to allow for more than one person using it at the same time. A handheld radio only allows one person to talk at a time and this would not be helpful at an event.
2. Timing and juding need to be on different "channels". The starter/ finisher and computer worker (at both timing team events and non-timing team events) need to be in constant contact with each other to ensure that the event works effectively. The judges are far better off on another channel.
3. At the World Cup in Cardiff we had a nightmare because we were relying on a wifi based system to transmit the judges results from the keypad operators to control, some of the issue was never fixed at the event. This was a high-tec and expensive system used be Siwidata at all the World Cup events. The reason we used a hard-wired system is that it is basic and is far easier to "fix" any faults.
4. Any system need to be SIMPLE. As I said above, I don't know how our system currently works but I do know that if something is not working it is likely to be because of one of two things 1) the battery in the headset/ grey box is dead or 2) there is a loose wire. That means even someone like me can attempt to fix a problem on site. The more gadgets etc that are introduced the harder it is for someone to attempt to fix and the more that can go wrong.
However, there are a few points from my point of view that would need to be taken into account:
1. The system would need to allow for more than one person using it at the same time. A handheld radio only allows one person to talk at a time and this would not be helpful at an event.
2. Timing and juding need to be on different "channels". The starter/ finisher and computer worker (at both timing team events and non-timing team events) need to be in constant contact with each other to ensure that the event works effectively. The judges are far better off on another channel.
3. At the World Cup in Cardiff we had a nightmare because we were relying on a wifi based system to transmit the judges results from the keypad operators to control, some of the issue was never fixed at the event. This was a high-tec and expensive system used be Siwidata at all the World Cup events. The reason we used a hard-wired system is that it is basic and is far easier to "fix" any faults.
4. Any system need to be SIMPLE. As I said above, I don't know how our system currently works but I do know that if something is not working it is likely to be because of one of two things 1) the battery in the headset/ grey box is dead or 2) there is a loose wire. That means even someone like me can attempt to fix a problem on site. The more gadgets etc that are introduced the harder it is for someone to attempt to fix and the more that can go wrong.
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Nick Penfold
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Re: Tutty - just thoughts on the future
We have used radio before, and it is horrible. The problem is that with FM radio, whichever signal is the strongest blocks - altogether - any other signal*. This is OK with one-to-one comms, as long as both parties remember to let go of the transmit button to listen, but it's dreadful for the normal control-to-two-or-three-judges scenario. In practice, control has to take control and ask the judges for their results rather than the judges passing them in as they can, and judge-to-judge communication goes out of the window. Even with control taking control, we got over a quarter of an hour behind with results at Llandysul three or four years back.
I'm all for simple technology, and ideally simple wireless technology, but walkie talkies are not up to the job. Wired headsets are great when they work, which they usually do, and we need something that gives similar capability.
* That's why, if you listen on Channel 16 (the calling and emergency channel) in the Solent you'll frequently hear the coastguard telling yachties to shut up or move to another channel. Their yakking could be blocking an SOS.
I'm all for simple technology, and ideally simple wireless technology, but walkie talkies are not up to the job. Wired headsets are great when they work, which they usually do, and we need something that gives similar capability.
* That's why, if you listen on Channel 16 (the calling and emergency channel) in the Solent you'll frequently hear the coastguard telling yachties to shut up or move to another channel. Their yakking could be blocking an SOS.
Re: Tutty - just thoughts on the future
Right, I have a few things to clear up here!
I used Walkie Talkies as an example of how the technology can be used - Walkie Talkies can have a battery life of several days and a few km. However an out of the box Walkie Talkie is no good, you don't want to have to hold a button to talk, you don't want to hold the thing to your ear, and we certainly need multiple people to be able to talk at once, to multiple channels!
My assumption was custom designed hardware, as is most of what we have already.
My proposed method for multi way communication is:
-Each headset box contains one FM transmitter & receiver
-Each headset box transmits only back to a mains powered base station in control
-The base station has multiple receivers, each tuned to different frequencies, one for each headset box
-The base station combines the signals it receives into several channels, and transmits them on separate frequencies
ie. Judges A + B + Control 1 combined & transmitted at 200MHz ; Judges C + D + Control 2 combined & transmitted at 209MHz
The headset boxes for start and finish could also have a second channel capable of transmitting start and finish signals, or digitally transmitting data, such as start and finish times. If this system was able to transmit start + finish times & bib numbers, the 'Tutti' in control, would only have to store them in memory and make a calculation; there would be no issue with running out of timers, and with the right software, the whole thing could be made to interface with a PC, and enter all the results and times directly into the results sheet etc.
I have three issues with using the Raspberry Pi with Wifi.
- Reliability of Wifi. How many Wifi networking issues do we come across on a day to day basis? I'm even on my 4th BT Homehub, with the number of issues I've had with them! By nature, any full duplex digital system is going to be unreliable due to their complexity, unless a huge amount of time is taken ironing out those issues.
-Delays. A of of clubs do not use a remote start, and require someone counting down 3-2-1, and telling someone in control when to start the clock. Certainly for me with Skype, I get about a second delay over my own WiFi, (+ occasional lags), which isn't great for something time critical, and sometimes leads to people talking over the top of each other
-Power Consumption I don't know what it's like, but I'd guess from the way my laptop goes, running wifi is going to drain any batteries pretty quickly?
However, using a Raspberry Pi & Wifi could make it much easier for start & finish to send any data for times etc?
I used Walkie Talkies as an example of how the technology can be used - Walkie Talkies can have a battery life of several days and a few km. However an out of the box Walkie Talkie is no good, you don't want to have to hold a button to talk, you don't want to hold the thing to your ear, and we certainly need multiple people to be able to talk at once, to multiple channels!
My assumption was custom designed hardware, as is most of what we have already.
My proposed method for multi way communication is:
-Each headset box contains one FM transmitter & receiver
-Each headset box transmits only back to a mains powered base station in control
-The base station has multiple receivers, each tuned to different frequencies, one for each headset box
-The base station combines the signals it receives into several channels, and transmits them on separate frequencies
ie. Judges A + B + Control 1 combined & transmitted at 200MHz ; Judges C + D + Control 2 combined & transmitted at 209MHz
The headset boxes for start and finish could also have a second channel capable of transmitting start and finish signals, or digitally transmitting data, such as start and finish times. If this system was able to transmit start + finish times & bib numbers, the 'Tutti' in control, would only have to store them in memory and make a calculation; there would be no issue with running out of timers, and with the right software, the whole thing could be made to interface with a PC, and enter all the results and times directly into the results sheet etc.
I have three issues with using the Raspberry Pi with Wifi.
- Reliability of Wifi. How many Wifi networking issues do we come across on a day to day basis? I'm even on my 4th BT Homehub, with the number of issues I've had with them! By nature, any full duplex digital system is going to be unreliable due to their complexity, unless a huge amount of time is taken ironing out those issues.
-Delays. A of of clubs do not use a remote start, and require someone counting down 3-2-1, and telling someone in control when to start the clock. Certainly for me with Skype, I get about a second delay over my own WiFi, (+ occasional lags), which isn't great for something time critical, and sometimes leads to people talking over the top of each other
-Power Consumption I don't know what it's like, but I'd guess from the way my laptop goes, running wifi is going to drain any batteries pretty quickly?
However, using a Raspberry Pi & Wifi could make it much easier for start & finish to send any data for times etc?
Re: Tutty - just thoughts on the future
As for walkietalkies we use pair for each scoring post so everybody is talking on another channel. other people can be using the same channels, but this is always solved by some gentle persuading the other persons to switch their channels or picking another channel ourselves (we have a total of 8 channels available in NL). This is for backup only anyway,
Our start box is 'legacy' but works quite well. It's a wirewrapped box with discrete logic inside. In short how it works:
-Select a number on the startbox
-Send the number to the PC via RS232
-PC confirms the number and gives the signal ready to go
-Startbox begins beeping so that the paddles knows the start is ready
-When the lightbeam break is detected (doublebeam), a pulse is sent immediately followed by the start number in binary
At the scoring office the cabling is split into connections to a PC (for detecting the number and remaining battery charge of the start box) and an Alge Timy. The Timy accepts a pulse as input and outputs a timecode via RS232. These are the same devices as Siwidata uses, these are calibrated and have built-in printer and memory backup. The program we use is Ariadne, http://www.tijdteam.nl/ariadne/index.htm
We used to do the competitions at DWD with the Siwidata Canoe123 program, but have switched to Ariadne. In my opinion the Canoe123 program is more suited for the bigger (WC) competitions and the Ariadne program is more usefull for when you have competitions where a lot of people want to join in at the last moment and not paddle precisely in order of the start lists....
Our start box is 'legacy' but works quite well. It's a wirewrapped box with discrete logic inside. In short how it works:
-Select a number on the startbox
-Send the number to the PC via RS232
-PC confirms the number and gives the signal ready to go
-Startbox begins beeping so that the paddles knows the start is ready
-When the lightbeam break is detected (doublebeam), a pulse is sent immediately followed by the start number in binary
At the scoring office the cabling is split into connections to a PC (for detecting the number and remaining battery charge of the start box) and an Alge Timy. The Timy accepts a pulse as input and outputs a timecode via RS232. These are the same devices as Siwidata uses, these are calibrated and have built-in printer and memory backup. The program we use is Ariadne, http://www.tijdteam.nl/ariadne/index.htm
We used to do the competitions at DWD with the Siwidata Canoe123 program, but have switched to Ariadne. In my opinion the Canoe123 program is more suited for the bigger (WC) competitions and the Ariadne program is more usefull for when you have competitions where a lot of people want to join in at the last moment and not paddle precisely in order of the start lists....
Re: Tutty - just thoughts on the future
Thanks for the input re Ariadne - this is really useful.
Re: Tutty - just thoughts on the future
This topic seems to be getting talked about alot but little seems to change due to the "its not broke so why change" or "it costs money" mentality. Here is another post viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1148
At our june event i used one of my pi's as a results web server together with a ddwrt wireless router to let paddlers see a direct output of simply slalom results (Worked well but could do with changing a bit/lot) along with other information about the event.
I have also been thinking about the change of results scoring system but i think it needs to be bigger then just slalom. a framework should be created so that all outputs from slalom, marathon, sprints, ww racing, polo etc can be put into one master results system and people can also enter events from that application/framework.
I often wonder how many students have created a piece of slalom software that would make all our life's a little easier come event day.
Ideally i would like to see a technical working group with all the different disciplines of the sport to get together to try and see if it is possible to start a common framework.
Just my 2 cents
At our june event i used one of my pi's as a results web server together with a ddwrt wireless router to let paddlers see a direct output of simply slalom results (Worked well but could do with changing a bit/lot) along with other information about the event.
I have also been thinking about the change of results scoring system but i think it needs to be bigger then just slalom. a framework should be created so that all outputs from slalom, marathon, sprints, ww racing, polo etc can be put into one master results system and people can also enter events from that application/framework.
I often wonder how many students have created a piece of slalom software that would make all our life's a little easier come event day.
Ideally i would like to see a technical working group with all the different disciplines of the sport to get together to try and see if it is possible to start a common framework.
Just my 2 cents
Re: Tutty - just thoughts on the future
Last weekend we had a slalom race in Helmond where tried to used walkie-talkies foor start-finish communication. Unfortunately the quality was so bad that you could only understand about 1 in 5 words spoken. Then we set up cables for a telephone system, which worked for a short time before the telephone exchange fried... Luckily it wasn't that far from start to fnish and we were able to just walk over in case of problems. This weekend there's another competition at my own club, I hope things will go a bit smoother there
Another program which is used by the Belgian clubs and which might be interesting:
http://www.kara.kajak.be.eu.org/
At first glance it looks nice, but I didn't really have time yet to look atit with much detail. Hardware seems to be a self-built microprocessor as clock.
Another program which is used by the Belgian clubs and which might be interesting:
http://www.kara.kajak.be.eu.org/
At first glance it looks nice, but I didn't really have time yet to look atit with much detail. Hardware seems to be a self-built microprocessor as clock.