Official Practice

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
djberriman
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Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Official Practice

Post by djberriman » Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:15 pm

Would be good if once in a while ALL paddlers cleared the course when official practice is on and also refrained from paddling back to redo bits (particularly the last few gates). Regularly paddlers have to be asked more than once to clear the course by one or more people.

In addition please can whoever is controlling practice ensure they do not allow anyone to start without their bib, not only does this make it impossible to identify them, it also means they may take more than one official practice. Bribes of bacon butties (with runny egg) should not allow them to run without their bib nor (possibly) take more than one official practice.

I'm pretty sure I witnessed at least one paddler having more than one official practice recently.

I've also got to the bottom of the course and found it deserted (no safety) or had to challenge people as to why they are getting off before waiting for the next 2 paddlers.

Relevant rules

UK C19.8 After their run a Competitor MUST stay in their boat within a clearly indicated distance from the finish until the next, and next but one Competitor has finished

UK C22.3 During all practice there should be at least two persons supervising safety, one at the start to organise regular starts and at least one other along the course to ensure that full runs only are attempted where required by the rules or by the Organiser.

So the safety area should be clearly indicated and a 2nd person should be supervising practice - not sure when I last saw that!

The rules are pretty clear so perhaps everyone could just stick to them. One official practice, wear your bib, keep clear of the course, don't paddle back when you have finished and ensure you stay near finish for safety until the NEXT 2 paddlers have finished (regardless of how many people may be floating around somewhere).

:)

Nick Penfold
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Re: Official Practice

Post by Nick Penfold » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:57 pm

djberriman wrote:I've also got to the bottom of the course and found it deserted (no safety) or had to challenge people as to why they are getting off before waiting for the next 2 paddlers.
Or, as at Llandysul this weekend, sloping off to play on the waves below the end of the course. I have no problem with playtime, guys, but wait near the finish line until the next two paddlers have finished before you go to play.

I took one paddler aside to point this out, but I'm sure he was only one of many.

Flyhigh3
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Location: North

Re: Official Practice

Post by Flyhigh3 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:00 pm

Nick Penfold wrote:
djberriman wrote:I've also got to the bottom of the course and found it deserted (no safety) or had to challenge people as to why they are getting off before waiting for the next 2 paddlers.
I took one paddler aside to point this out, but I'm sure he was only one of many.

Especially it was made very clear last year at the same event - and a young lad who inadvertently (rather than blatantly) was said by some to have not waited for at least two paddlers was threatened with disqualification - so why is it still happening and why weren't they disqualified?

kendall chew
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Location: Cheshire

Re: Official Practice

Post by kendall chew » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:05 pm

Suggest that large sign on the riverbank, possibly in dayglo, would be worth placing at both ingress and egress points. Simple but worth a try.

kendall chew
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Location: Cheshire

Re: Official Practice

Post by kendall chew » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:08 pm

I suggest that a simple, large notice, possibly in Dayglo, placed at ingress and egress might be worth trying as a starter. Possibly also one slung across the river, just south of the finish line.

BaldockBabe
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Re: Official Practice

Post by BaldockBabe » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:10 pm

At least one paddler has been disqualified recently for not staying on to provide safety. The rules exist to allow for this, paddlers are aware of them, they just need enforcing.

Though from a finishers point of view the worst culprits are the Prems who have had a bad run. Disqualufying them from the run doesn't help as they don't care...

Flyhigh3
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Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:14 pm
Location: North

Re: Official Practice

Post by Flyhigh3 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:12 am

A large notice at finish to remind.
And/or an official at the bottom whose responsibility it is to direct those when they can get off

They 'just' need enforcing consistently and regularly to be effective.... (like parenting)

And the Prems are just the ones needed to stay on if it's actually for safety, so maybe disqualification for the race rather than the run for blatant flouting of the rules for them...
Actually I'm not sure disqualification is even the answer...if it's REALLY about safety then safety and rescue course (or at least principles of safety and rescue) for slalom paddlers is needed - saw some pretty ineffective rescuing going on recently, and not from young ones. (but I think the issue is on another thread somewhere, so won't go there further)

Nick Penfold
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Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: Official Practice

Post by Nick Penfold » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:21 am

Flyhigh3 wrote:Especially it was made very clear last year at the same event - and a young lad who inadvertently (rather than blatantly) was said by some to have not waited for at least two paddlers was threatened with disqualification - so why is it still happening and why weren't they disqualified?
Because (a) nobody wants to be policeman - and the policeman would have to be there for the duration giving equal observation to everyone - and (b) the event should be something everyone enjoys, and threats and disqualifications have no place in that. We just need a bit more sense of safety and responsibility.

BTW - at Llandysul there were notices about it at the put-in, stressing the need to stay close to the finish line.

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bankside
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Location: GB

Re: Official Practice

Post by bankside » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:36 am

Paddlers should stay on the water for safety; it's good practice. And many are oblivious to the risks beyond the end of the course - 4th falls at Tully for example.
But events and official should be consistent. Sad to remember that my 14 year old daughter was disqualified (for not staying on the water) after her very first run and visit at HPP but then hear that other paddlers at other events are not.....

Flyhigh3
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Location: North

Re: Official Practice

Post by Flyhigh3 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:25 am

Nick Penfold wrote: Because (a) nobody wants to be policeman - and the policeman would have to be there for the duration giving equal observation to everyone - and (b) the event should be something everyone enjoys, and threats and disqualifications have no place in that. We just need a bit more sense of safety and responsibility
.

I absolutely agree - the whole process totally ruined a potentially really enjoyable moment and achievement for the lad and his family at the time and subsequently

it's the equal for all principle I am for

Neil H
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Re: Official Practice

Post by Neil H » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:45 pm

I don't think anyone should be put through the stress of potential disqualification. It's the inconsistency across events that breeds it. So it's not surprising that some get off it's is let slide elsewhere. I don't think it should lead to anyone should be disqualified now the precedent has been set.
I'd sort out other inconsistencies too while we are at it.....protests for one

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oldschool
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Re: Official Practice

Post by oldschool » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:58 pm

two seperate things.

official practice - if your on a run you can do each gate in the course as many times as you like. you'll get a rubbish result but there are no limits to the number of times you can pass through a gate as long as you complete it in numerically accending order.
in my opinion offical practice should be scrapped completely, its a waste of time, when we have open practice at all events below prem anyway.

safety at the end of runs - why are we still reliant on paddlers to provide safety cover after their run? after my runs i'm in no fit state to do anything other than watch someone float past, and the BCU coaching and saftey and rescue courses make it clear you should not endanger yourself in order to rescue someone else. in todays society if a paddler injures themselves rescuing a boat/person after their run i'd be expecting a comensation claim to be winging its way to the organiser!

djberriman
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Re: Official Practice

Post by djberriman » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:40 pm

Redoing a gate umpteen times if it takes your fancy is one thing, paddling back and redoing sections and obstructing others is something completely different - if you do so then no wonder you are in no fit state to help rescue :)

I do however agree that someone who has just completed a run is often in no fit state to rescue anyone else, I've often thought it should really be the next 3 so the poor sod who has just finished can catch their breath, as for watching someone float past I'd doubt you would really do that and that is a long way off putting yourself at risk as in most cases there is a reasonable area to assist swimmers before any danger, I have on more than one occasision rescued the paddler but given up chasing a boat/paddle as it has gone to far down stream. I've do wonder why we send the least experienced (highest bib) down first from a safety point of view! End of the day some rescue is better than none and even if you are in no fit state to rescue someone you can at least raise the alarm. With no rescue at the bottom you might not be missed for quite a while!

As for scrapping official practice I'd be dead against it - it is the only time you can run the course at full tilt other than on your official runs. Free practice is sadly usually a total bun fight and every time I've tried to run the whole course at full speed during open practice this year I can gurantee some brave (foolish) paddler will either be sat in an up gate or pull out of it right in front of me. Happened at least once on every run at Abbey Rapids. I do understand paddlers wanting to redo the tricky moves/sections would just be nice if they could look up stream before setting off and keep clear of the gates :)

Just be nice if paddlers followed the rules there are and showed some respect for other paddlers.

HaRVey
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Location: Nottingham

Re: Official Practice

Post by HaRVey » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:14 pm

Hi All,

I'm weighing in...

'Compensation claim...'
You have signed a waiver when you enter, and when you register for your bib, which says you are taking part in a Risk related water sport activity. In my opinion it is actually more likely a compensation issue the other way.
Part of the Risk reduction on the organisers part is adequate safety cover. A key part of this safety cover is that two competent paddlers remain at the finish until all the paddlers have completed their runs. If you have completed your run and still in your boat, you are obviously competent. If you do not uphold your role in this action, a role you have signed up to perform, on agreeing to take part in the event, the Canoe slalom event rules, you are creating an even greater risk to the organiser, and in my line of work could be done for negligence or failure to uphold a duty of care.

As for the 'disqualification this year, at a Prem...'
I was not involved, but i am well aware of the female paddler referenced here. I was a major part of the organising body for this event.
There are 3 issues relating to this:
1. This was the wrong decision by the Jury. They should not have disqualified this paddler.

The Rule States - Section on Safety
UK C19.8 "After their run a Competitor MUST stay in their boat within a clearly indicated distance from the finish, until the next, and next but one Competitor has finished, in case they are called upon to act as rescue boat, UNLESS the Organiser, having made other rescue arrangements, has specifically indicated that this is not required or the paddler has arranged an alternate to provide this safety cover. This regulation applies equally to team events. Failure to comply with this rule will result in disqualification from that run (DSQ-R)."

Thus a paddler cannot be DSQ until the organiser has clearly indicated the distance to the finish line that a paddler must stay with in. At any other point if the paddler is in their boat and downstream of the finish line, the paddler is upholding their end of the agreement to race and can obviously in the organisers opinion make a rescue when required to do so.

2. A secondary issue in this case, is the jury used the name of a direct competitor to evidence their decision. This information was later found to be false, but the decision stood.
Using the name of the individual was not a very sensible step, and led to an unacceptable outcome for both competitors which stemmed entirely from poor handling of the situation. The decision should then have been reversed, regardless of whether the DSQ paddler deemed it to matter or not.

3. The responsibility, if this is an issue at a race venue, lies with the organiser and finisher. Hence paddlers/spectators should direct their complaints to them if there is an issue. Simply, if you need a policeman, get the organiser to designate an area which the finisher can see, and let the finisher police it whilst also doing finish. Anyone not found in the area required, when required, would be DSQ.

TOG
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Re: Official Practice

Post by TOG » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:24 pm

djberriman wrote:Would be good if once in a while ALL paddlers cleared the course when official practice is on and also refrained from paddling back to redo bits (particularly the last few gates). Regularly paddlers have to be asked more than once to clear the course by one or more people.
The rules are pretty clear so perhaps everyone could just stick to them. One official practice, wear your bib, keep clear of the course, don't paddle back when you have finished and ensure you stay near finish for safety until the NEXT 2 paddlers have finished (regardless of how many people may be floating around somewhere).

:)


Getting back to the original point of this discussion - which subsequently seems to have split into two, not entirely unrelated issues - it's pretty clear what "free" and "organised/official" practice are.

In free practice you can do whatever parts of the course you want, umpteen times (assuming you are fit enough, unlike me); if you like that particular move or find it's the bit you need to practise most in order to help you improve, that's fine. It's quite possibly the same for many other paddlers on the day, so you have to put up with that. Hopefully everyone involved is able to exercise caution and responsibility to ensure enjoyment and safety - there may be some errors along the way due to paddlers on a learning curve but that's how it works. There may be club coaches taking several paddlers down at once, and repeating moves, but despite the problems this too can generate I would never knock any such approaches because that's how paddlers learn - and it's free practice.

As for scrapping official practice I'd be dead against it - it is the only time you can run the course at full tilt other than on your official runs. Free practice is sadly usually a total bun fight and every time I've tried to run the whole course at full speed during open practice this year I can gurantee some brave (foolish) paddler will either be sat in an up gate or pull out of it right in front of me. ...


Entirely agree - official/organised practice should be exactly that, so it isn't free practice as above. There has to be a difference. While in lower divisions multiple practice runs can be had, given time available, they should still be full runs ie from the top to the bottom of the course. What was a concern, as witnessed at a recent multiple division event, were the number of paddlers who either were unaware of the difference, or chose to ignore it, or were pressured to do so, as juniors, by parents who were equally unaware of the difference, or chose to ignore it. Despite several requests to clear the course, paddlers continued to repeat moves towards the bottom of the rapid during official practice, thus interrupting legitimate practice runs and technically endangering themselves/others. While sanctions around this issue usually amount to little more than a grim look and a bit of shouting/pointing, paddlers have to learn the rules and behaviour, including the safety reasons behind the conventions of practice both free and organised. Some these are informal; some are less so; but they are about making the sport safe and enjoyable. It might be that being a bit tougher around official practice observation would support this.

Secondly - safety at the foot of the course is part of the rules, which are there for all to see. Indeed, I've seen a lot more reminders posted around slalom controls of late, suggesting this is at very least a continuing problem - one that people are having to have their attention drawn to regularly. By entering an event, paddlers agree to abide by the rules - or their parents/carers do so on their behalf. While by its very nature, slalom pits one against others, I'd hope that wouldn't extend to watching one's competitors swim by. At the recent event referred to above, safety boats were out at the crux move, and at the end of the course. That didn't stop those of us waiting at the finish in rescuing/assisting in rescues, without weighing up compensation claims before we made a move.

While there might be arguments regarding inconsistency, I'd again suggest that a somewhat tougher approach to enforcement of what is part of the safety rules would help. Though my offence was genuinely "inadvertent", rather than "blatant" and far more years ago than I'd actually care to remember, I've neither forgotten it nor repeated it. :oops:

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