If the Answer is 42, what is the Question?

[ZakFranklin]

An increase in capacity definitely should be the preferred option I would assume, how close is Prem to a maximum capacity? Could an increase in the size of prem (many div 1 paddlers are good enough to race prem) alleviate the problem to a certain extent and could the format of Prem be altered to allow for a larger capacity anyway.

[Mrs C P Paddler]

Regional assistance/Section Judges/Timing:
These days we need more and more "qualified" people to attend and be present at races. This is going to make it harder to run races without breaking the rules and will discourage organisers from running races. Don't shoot me but I wonder whether we could reorganise the section judges and timing teams perhaps so that some of the qualifications could be covered by these people. To do this the size of these teams would need to be increased, I wonder whether this could be achieved by having regional teams under the umbrella on the main teams - the regional team members would only be committing to attending races in their region and could also include some "trainee" section judges. This might mean that more people come forward making support of the new div 2s more practical.

Nice sentiment. However, I think over the next few years we may loose many more section judges and if we want to increase these teams we need to have a concerted effort to recruit. Its not that easy to find people to work on these teams. If we go with regional teams it doesn't solve the problem of getting the kit around the country to the races.

[/
I agree that paddlers should expect to do judging stints - you know I have enforced the rule at events I have run. To be fair on the paddlers I only had one complaint/ refusal and that was a parent who said "little "precious" doesn't do judging" and that was a parent who should know better. No word of complaint from the international paddlers down to the new promotees that were also made to judge!

At HPP last weekend I had one parent come to me to ask if 'little precious' could leave his judging post because he was cold. As I pointed out the section judges had been there a lot longer than his son and we were waiting for the last few boats to arrive on start to complete the race and there was nothing I could do. He couldn't disagree with me. I'm all for enforcing paddlers to do judging stints and would support any organiser who makes paddlers judge. I think we can be far too lenient, putting more pressure on those who do judge. Maybe thats why we have problems recruiting more section judges and timing people because they see how much time we have to put into races.


I suspect that by the end of the year races will not be full. Paddlers seem to have gone into panic mode over entries because a few races have been oversubscribed at the beginning of the season. Surely, we should wait until the end of the season, collate the numbers of entries, have a good look at them before deciding how to solve the' problem' should we find there is a problem. We would still have time to put proposals to the ACM for change. Lets not rush into decisions that we may find cause us even more headaches next season. As many will remember we use to have 5 divisions. Have numbers increased that much that we need to have 5 divisions again or is it a case of standard of paddling? We should surely be celebrating the fact that we have so many people who want to participate in our sport.

[SilverSurfer]

The majority of comments in this thread are in favour of increasing capacity of the divisional system due to the perceived increase in divisional 1 entries. I say perceived as I don't believe anyone has yet captured, analysed or issued any real data based on this years entries.

There is currently a knee jerk reaction to entering races earlier, which means event organisers are posting that their race is full, sooner than in previous years, but that does not necessarily mean more people this year are entering races than in previous years.

It is also interesting to note that the Pinkston Div 1 race still states that it is not full.

Other factors also have to be considered, will the current trend of doubling up in C1M and C1W continue next year, currently this is a trend for paddlers on the talent programmes. If there was a decline, how many entries would that free up.

Look what happened with paddle up and portable points, and how many paddlers does that really benefit. Now we want to do a U turn on this, but just consider how much time and effort went into this, trying to change something that wasn't broken. Are we in danger of doing the same thing again, trying to increase capacity without understanding if there is a capacity issue first.

So as John says, stop trying to come up with solutions and actually identify if there is a problem first, furthermore, the scale of that problem. We shouldn't be proposing changes if it is to cater for a minority, which could change year on year.

When you consider the number of views of this post vs. the actuals number of people commenting - it doesn't support the view that there is a capacity problem as more paddlers would (and if not should) have their say.

To help identify if there is a problem, the race organisers for all division 1 should be consulted to collate the number of additional entries they received, and then carry out a review at the end of the season. There will be some paddlers who did not enter because the event was already full, whilst that is true, I am sure that also happened in previous years. But to cover all bases, then I am sure all division 1 paddlers could be asked (via their club) to provide feedback on races entered and/or tried to enter.

[Neil H]

Let's have a poll, I am told they are quite reliable these days

Joking aside, this needs addressing effectively

[CeeBee]

To me it all a matter of supply and demand.

So for many years in Scotland, the number of active paddlers was decreasing, there were minimal new paddlers coming into the sport and we had a handful of events running having lost many of the events that used to run. So go back a few years ago to before SportScotland investment (approx 7 years ago) - we didn't have a lot of organisers and paddlers but there were enough committed adults to run their club, coach aspiring athletes from other clubs across Scotland and for the Scottish squad to run largely on a voluntary basis with some small SportScotland lottery grants which directly supported the paddlers at training and races. These coaches and parents ran the required races to keep the paddlers competing and you travelled south if you had a burning desire to get promoted sooner.

We then got a significant uplift in lottery funding from SportScotland, professional staff were employed and you could see the sport coming back from almost extinction. We had a situation that we had lots more paddlers coming through because of the development squads put in place in Tayside and Central Region plus committed volunteer coaches in Aberdeen and Strathallan. These new paddlers generated money into the sport through entry fees that was all reinvested back into the sport. We also then had not only active keen paddlers but also active keen parents. The sport was looking rosy and healthy.

So, new clubs added more events to the calendar to cater for the increase in paddlers. Unfortunately, there was then a completely untried unpopular change in strategy to remove the funded development coaches with no appreciation of the consequences but also to segregate the squad paddlers entirely from the rest and the fragile equilibrium was destroyed. This has had the unfortunate consequence of some existing clubs having to spend the majority of their volunteer time on keeping the club viable for those already paddling but having minimal/no bandwidth to start new paddlers.

So, this year we have many events to choose from but a shortage of paddlers below Div 1.

Less paddlers then leads to less parents to volunteer and eventually those who have been involved for years, retire and there is no one to replace them. And so the future of the sport will rest in the hands of the strongest slalom club in Scotland who will need to carry the burden for the rest of Scotland to run the Slalom Committee, run all major races in future years and work out how to build the sport back up again.

So, we need to understand the consequences of doing nothing but also the consequences of what we do so that we make the right decisions for the benefit of the sport for it to grow.

[Nick Taylor]

First, I'm in favour of increasing capacity. (John Sturgess )asked contributors to declare their hand

Capacity = (number of events) x (runs per day at each event)

So there are 2 ways to increase capacity:

1) Increase the Number of events
By adding:
1.1) Additional events on existing sites run by same clubs
1.2) Additional events on existing sites run by clubs who currently run other events
1.2) Additional events on existing sites run by clubs who currently don't run other events
1.3) Additional events on new* sites by clubs who currently run other events
1.4) Additional events on new sites run by clubs who currently don't run other events

(* for ‘new sites’ read ‘sites not on the calendar at the moment’)

2) Increase runs per day at each event
By
2.1) Longer days by earlier start
2.2) Longer days by later finish
2.3) No lunch break on Saturday
2.4) No lunch break on Sunday
2.5) Shorter free practice on Saturday morning
2.6) Shorter free practice on Sunday morning
2.7) No free practice on Saturday morning
2.8 ) No free practice on Sunday morning
2.9) No official practice run on Saturday
2.10) No official practice run on Sunday

Some of these are more likely or attractive than others aren’t they? So maybe we can talk about some of them in this thread & see where the discussion takes us.
Here are a couple of inputs from me:
Adding events is hard. At Viking we run 5 days per year (1 @ Duckmill, 4@ Cardington) + we normally have some sort of role around the interclubs @ Cardington. It’s extremely unlikely that we would find enough volunteer energy to run another event.

So I’ll focus on Increasing Runs at each event.
From my list above 2.5-2.10, changing practice, are difficult as they alter the look & feel of an event to a competitor.

So let’s look at 2.1-2.4. These are all under the control & discretion of the event organiser (& in the interest of full disclosure – I'm an organiser & have just been working been working on start lists for Cardington in June).

I have some ideas but before I type another page maybe people can comment on this brain dump. I’ve probably missed something obvious!

[James Hastings]

I'm all in favour of increasing capacity generally across the whole of the ranking system. The more paddlers the stronger the competition and thus the stronger the sport. But before we get into specifics around increasing capacity, let's define the capacity problem. As far as I'm aware, no other divisions apart from Div 1 have had issues relating to the over-subcription of races. Thus as far as I can see, there isn't a capacity issue across the sport as a whole, just in relation to Div 1.

The reason for this seems to be blindingly obvious to me - Div 1M is far too big (the women's divisions don't seem to suffer from the same problem). The structure of the divisional system was always supposed to be roughly pyramidal, but it currently isn't. Div 1M is around 2.5 times bigger than Prem, but Div 2 is only 14% bigger than Div 1, with Div 3 31% bigger than Div 2.

The problem is created by the fact that far more paddlers are promoted into Div 1M each year than are promoted into Prem/demoted to Div 2/leave the sport. Extending the promotion criteria to best of five races in Div 2 will help slow promotions a bit but I suspect not enough to redress the balance.

So what are the options?

1) The simplest one that will involve the least change is to ensure that there is a much better balance between the inputs to Div 1 and the outputs from Div 1. However, to bring the divisional system back in line with the pyramidal structure, that is going to mean that outputs are going to have to exceed inputs for a while.

2) The more radical solution is the re-instatement of Div 5 as the entry level division and re-organisation of the current divisions. However, that is likely to be very unpopular with those that end up finding themselves in a lower division than under the previous system. Also on its own it doesn't solve the problem of an imbalance of inputs and outputs from Div 1 unless solution 1) is also applied.

3) The most radical solution is to abolish the divisional system altogether and just have all ranked paddlers in each class ranked 1 to XXXX. At a stroke the problem of divisional 'bulges' is solved as you don't have any divisions. However, this is a possible solution that the majority in the sport do not seem to want to even consider seriously.

Cheers,
James

[davebrads]

3) The most radical solution is to abolish the divisional system altogether and just have all ranked paddlers in each class ranked 1 to XXXX. At a stroke the problem of divisional 'bulges' is solved as you don't have any divisions. However, this is a possible solution that the majority in the sport do not seem to want to even consider seriously.s

The main reason for my objection to this is, and always has been, exactly the problem we are facing now; popular events will become oversubscribed. And worse still, the paddlers that get entries won't be selected on merit, but on a first come first served system.

I can't see a simpler or more effective way of ensuring quality competition between paddlers of similar abilities, nor has anyone proposed anything better in my opinion. So given that things have got out of balance so badly now we will need to take radical action to repair it, which may upset some people but we can't allow this situation to continue into next season.

Increasing capacity is a great idea in theory, in practice it is far more difficult. There doesn't seem to be a vast amount of people volunteering to run new events. We could increase the capacity at each race, but as I have said before I am against lengthening the day so that only leaves reducing gaps between paddlers. The other way would be to reduce the number of events available to each division, and this would inevitably mean the wholesale return of the single race per weekend. This is unpopular amongst many paddlers, but I don't think it will be as bad as they think. Because the number of events is reduced, the value of each event is much higher. The option will be there to judge the other day, so you still get a weekends paddling in if you want, and it solves the increasing problem organisers face of getting enough judges - a significant problem for me at my last race, which had an impact on our ability to provide safety cover (the subject of another post)

[Dee]

2) Increase runs per day at each event
By
2.1) Longer days by earlier start
2.2) Longer days by later finish
2.3) No lunch break on Saturday
2.4) No lunch break on Sunday
.........

So let’s look at 2.1-2.4. These are all under the control & discretion of the event organiser (& in the interest of full disclosure – I'm an organiser & have just been working been working on start lists for Cardington in June).

I have some ideas but before I type another page maybe people can comment on this brain dump. I’ve probably missed something obvious!

For many div 1 events a longer day just isn't possible for lots of reasons: water availability, light availability etc
Many div 1 events are already run with minimal lunch "breaks" which are often used to ensure that any issues are resolved, results recorded caught up and everything prepared for the next runs.

[Dee]

PS Just in case it was ambiguous, I am in favour of increasing capacity

[TobyLerone]

As previously mentioned it seems there is a particular problem with capacity at division 1 level.

The problem I see is a large proportion of division 1 races are on courses that either limit water time or cost considerable outlay to run events on them. As I know costs are an issue organisers face, how feasible is it to host more events at these locations?

Alternatively, if an extra division were to be introduced, would division 2 courses then be run on more difficult water than they are at present, or would there be an even greater divide between water and divisions?

[Dee]

As previously mentioned it seems there is a particular problem with capacity at division 1 level.
The problem I see is a large proportion of division 1 races are on courses that either limit water time or cost considerable outlay to run events on them. As I know costs are an issue organisers face, how feasible is it to host more events at these locations?

In some cases there may be an issue with water time, but the bigger issue is sufficient volunteers to run them. At Shepperton we have been discussing the possibility of running a double div 1 one weekend followed by a double div 2 the following weekend next year (instead of the usual combined div 1/2). Two weekends running right at the start of the season could hopefully give us decent water for both events and will reduce setup effort, but it will inevitably be the same people that turn out to do the lion's share of the work which makes people a little hesitant. There is a particular risk that we don't get enough turn out the second weekend to help with timing/start/finish. And all the extra cover of qualified safety people may cause further issues.

Alternatively, if an extra division were to be introduced, would division 2 courses then be run on more difficult water than they are at present, or would there be an even greater divide between water and divisions?

This was certainly my suggestion; if we are going to demote the bottom third of div 1, say, we have to give them races that still provide a challenge or they'll just drop out.

[Nick Taylor]

Dee makes a good point that many event run long days already & I’m certainly not thinking that 'other people' should run longer events... Dee is also spot on with the observation that volunteer resource is an issue. Kudos to Shepperton for even considering running 2 events instead of one!
I was thinking of our own Cardington events.
Could we increase capacity of this Div 2/3/4 event & get more paddlers down the course over the weekend?
How?
Why are we not already doing it?
Before I start let me just say that I am making no commitment - just exploring. But it's very timely discussion because 4 weeks before our June event we are pretty much full. Which will leave no room for entries on the day - a traditional way for newbies to enter a local div 4 event & start their slalom career. So there is a capacity problem in the lower divisions.

We could do all of these:
2.1) Longer days by earlier start
2.2) Longer days by later finish
2.3) No lunch break on Saturday
2.4) No lunch break on Sunday

2.1 - earlier start would change the character of the event - I think one reason we are full is that families & clubs bring people from each div (2, 3 & 4) & like to be able to travel on Saturday morning. Earlier start would spoil that. It would also require more volunteer hours.

So let's leave that alone for now & look at the others.

2.3 later finish - hmmm, small group of volunteers, already pushed

2.3 & 2.4
In truth we need a lunch break because we need it to catch up because by lunch we're probably running late. I'd love to say that we are fabulously organised & make no mistakes but those of you who know Viking would just laugh. We do ok with the same old group of volunteers. Is it what it is.
If TUTTI didn't break that would help wouldn't it? (not blaming anyone but it's not reliable)
Another big impact on putting people down the course is things that go wrong on runs. In the lower divisions people catch each other up. Fact. In my experience neither judges nor paddlers know what to do when catch-ups happen. So we have re-runs which takes more time so we get fewer people down the course.

So we probably won't be doing any of these 2.1 - 2.4. Which is a shame as it takes all that effort putting in the rapid blocks, putting up the gates etc etc. Just to get 160 paddlers down the course. We COULD get another 50 down if we started slightly earlier, ran smoothly & finished later. But we won't because our volunteers just can't take it.

So how could the slalom community solve that one?
Money would help. My guess is that no club is taking a stack of cash out of any of their events. If they are good luck to them. We're not. So we're doing it for love & when you push volunteers to love you too much they run away.
If we could make a lot more moey by running a long event or another event maybe we would but with the levy set at the level it is plus the multi class discount that won't happen
(sorry but it is called rants & raves)

TUTTI replacement would help

Lower levies would help

Stopping multi class discounts would help (I think but I’ve not done the maths)

A judges exam that helped people deal with issues that arise every weekend at div 3 & 4 would be good. Eg what to do if someone is caught up. Rather than mad scenarios about people going through gate 1 twice then stopping for lunch then rolling then going through gate 12 then back through gate 3.

Please jump in here & disagree. I guess I’m being a little provocative to try to get some discussion going.

One last thing…

How will more divisions help if there are:
The same number of paddlers
The same number of sites
The same number of volunteers
The same number of events
(The same price)

Maybe I’m missing something...

[Niciss]

Volunteer time is always an issue, there are people who do and a lot more people who don't. In terms of judging, can we look at how polo handle their refereeing ? As well as the match list, there is a corresponding referees list, teams are expected to provide referees or linesman, newbies are welcomed and supported. I know its for a shorter period of time than the average judging stint, but I think the whole expectation to be involved in the running of the games creates a different culture. More judges would free up others to get on with the 'organising' tasks.

[Mrs C P Paddler]

So are you saying that if a club has, say, 4 or more people go to a slalom you expect that club to send a judge?
Nice theory but sorry I don't see it working. If clubs went to slaloms as a 'club trip' then it could work and often that already happens at lower divisions. But, we don't have a 'club' culture in slalom so I just don't see it happening.
If you didn't already know, there are already 'lists' of judges and timing for the Prem and Div 1 races for each race this year and that is sorted at the beginning of the year. But that doesn't prevent somebody from joining the timing or judging teams throughout the year as we don't have enough people and we do struggle at some races. Gates judges are also hard to come by at these races. Judging stints would be shorter if we had more judges! Obvious really.
Yes we need more volunteers, we all agree on that and valuing volunteers is something that is often discussed on this board. We need to be more active in cajoling people into helping and maybe they will find a weekend at a slalom more interesting but I'm afraid there will always be those who are just not interested in helping out!!!

Races cant run without people. The sooner that gets through to the masses, the sooner the masses might realise that its no good complaining about the lack of races if they don't pull their fingers out and help the few who want to run races