If the Answer is 42, what is the Question?

[Sven]

I think Niciss has a really good idea here.

Also I think it does happen to an extent that club members travel to races together even at Div1 and Prem - maybe not in one vehicle but there are usually pretty good club turn outs and there is probably more more of a club culture than some may be aware of. I doubt it would take much to get something like this organised.

I think it is important that where we have challenges in slalom we do look to other disciplines to see how they run things so we can learn from others and effect change for the better. We dont have all the answers so why reinvent the wheel - goodness knows enough contributors to these threads go on about people not offering solutions etc but when they do they often get shot down in flames.

My suspicion is there is a range of complex issues why people dont come forward not least of which I suspect is to do with an at times lack of efficient, sympathetic and sensitive communication.

[Dee]

I agree that there are lots of reasons why people don't come forward to judge. I do think we have to recognise that 'volunteers' sometimes need a little gentle coercion! In my case this means walking around grabbing small groups of complete strangers and persuading them that there is a first time for everything!

So are you saying that if a club has, say, 4 or more people go to a slalom you expect that club to send a judge? Nice theory but sorry I don't see it working......

Agreed, but larger groups from some clubs will sometimes be helpful. Stafford and Stone (who I 'hate' because they always win interclubs ) were brilliant one year as they just took a judging position for the whole day and managed it between themselves! On another occasion, I asked another club and the coach's reaction was "No, they're here to be coached and to paddle". So learning to volunteer is clearly not something that coach felt was a worthwhile experience.


At the last few div 1s that I ran, I got round the judges problem by "telling" people that they were judging. Generally selecting late entries and reasonably local paddlers to fill my quota. I got a few moans but mostly good natured ones. However, one of these people just disappeared and didn't bother to turn up for his stint.

We currently have two rules (well two I think are relevant).

D5.3 ...At any event, if there is a shortage of judges, the Organiser may require paddlers (or their nominated substitutes) to judge or undertake other official duties...

UK C40.2 Any Competitor or Official whose behaviour is detrimental to the proper and orderly conduct of the competition may be disqualified by the Chief Judge ...

I felt that these should be used to disqualify the paddler as to my mind there is no point to D5.3 if we can't do anything. However, I was advised against by the jury chair (can't remember who it was). So the paddler concerned got away with causing the previous judge at that gate (another press-ganged paddler) to do a double stint in the March winds.

I think we have to make more use of these rules and just assign paddlers judging stints. Obviously, some reasonableness is required - I'm not advocating giving a 5pm judging stint to someone with a 5/6hr journey ahead of them - but the rules need teeth!

[Dee]

..At HPP last weekend I had one parent come to me to ask if 'little precious' could leave his judging post because he was cold. As I pointed out the section judges had been there a lot longer than his son and we were waiting for the last few boats to arrive on start to complete the race and there was nothing I could do. ..

Perhaps you could have pointed out to the parent that he/she could act as little precious's nominated other.

Having said that we stopped volunteering/applying for officials runs at HPP after a 3hr stint one afternoon at the McConkey (plus a long morning stint) many years ago. I know (and respect) that the section judges do very long stints, but they are dressed for it and are often provided with some shelter in the form of large umbrella's etc. However, I don't think any volunteer gate judge should be required to do this.

[CeeBee]

The perennial problem of not enough judges.

In my younger days as a keen paddler, it was the norm that you judged at events you weren't racing at.

I think we need to ask people why they don't judge. Is this because they can't be bothered, don't want to end up on the river bank for several hours because of a shortage of judges, lack of confidence, they pay to 'paddle up' or other reasons? I was roped in to cover a stint at a race a year ago and ended up there for 3.5 hours as the next judge didn't turn up which put me off.

Many people don't feel appreciated when they offer to judge and there are some events where I know people will not volunteer to Section judge or judge because of how they are treated.

I can excuse some of the youngsters from not judging as they don't know any better or are not old enough to be competent. But there are certain adult paddlers who would never dream of helping either run an event or judge at an event. Some of these have happily entered races for many years and taken full advantage of the voluntary services of others. Some ,once they retire from competing will start helping in their club but many put nothing back into the sport and the same trusty few mugs continue to run and help at slaloms to keep the sport alive.

So, what can we do? I think we need to educate paddlers and actively encourage paddlers to help at a minimum of 1 event. This can either be at an event they are racing at once they have raced or at another race. Maybe, we need to make it mandatory for all paddlers ranked in say Div 2 and above to help.

[Dee]

..I was roped in to cover a stint at a race a year ago and ended up there for 3.5 hours as the next judge didn't turn up which put me off. ...

Yup, this is not unusual. The problem is that when you are running the event you don't always realise it is happening until it is too late (Yes we should and try to check that replacements are arriving, but with 1001 other things happening)

.. I think we need to educate paddlers and actively encourage paddlers to help at a minimum of 1 event...

Unfortunately 1 event is not enough! I think perhaps people sometimes don't realise just how many helpers are needed
Eg: At a div 1/2, assuming we want to keep judging stints to 45mins ish, we ideally need around:

• 4 or 5 judging positions
• 2 judges clerks
• A pre-starter
• 4 or 5 time slots in the morning
• 4 or 5 time slots in the afternoon

So that's around 70 helpers each day; possibly as many as 80 (and that's before you include section judges, timing team, starters, finishers, canteen, organiser, those that set up and dismantle etc)

We have an entry limit of 150 boats (per day but in practice most individuals paddle both days), so really we need every paddler to do at least one stint over the course of the weekend!

Actually, looking at these figures makes me realise just why we have the problems we do

[Niciss]

I do think its about developing a culture of volunteering being a part of the sport. As was pointed out I'm no expert in how races are run especially at higher levels, but I know I see a few people running round, very busy, with no time to explain to others, who may be willing to help, what needs doing. Maybe alongside the published start list a jobs list, which people can sign up to beforehand, either as individuals or a group, managing a gate judge is a great idea. Not everyone is confident enough to seek out strangers, offer what may be limited technical help, wondering if they're more of a hindrance, but they may be friendly with someone on a gate and be willing to learn on the job with a familiar face; the same goes for organisers who may feel uncomfortable approaching strangers who, from previous posts, can be quite rude.
There should be an expectation for paddlers to be actively involved, although this could be difficult to fit in if paddling 2 disciplines in a day. A tick box maybe on entry cards ? There should also be some responsibility within the clubs, surely even if not travelling as a club, or even if no club culture (I dread to think how that feels), then at least a coach knows who has entered a race and can ask 'what are you going to do to help?' As I said in polo being able to referee goes alongside being able to play, no matter how young, clubs take responsibility to train their referees and you will often see young paddlers refereeing alongside adults, getting to grips with the rules and signals.

[davebrads]

In my younger days as a keen paddler, it was the norm that you judged at events you weren't racing at.

And there were enough people doing just that to make the system work, there isn't nowadays and I would make a couple of guesses as to the reason why:

1. There are a lot more events nowadays, at least in division 1.
2. Paddlers are generally more ambitious, and non-racing weekends are often taken up with training camps.

Unless something changes we are going to have to come up with a new solution. Making paddlers judge seems to be the most workable, but as Dee says there needs to be some meaningful punishment for any that duck out of their stint.

[boatmum]

Given Dee's stats - showing we need all paddlers to do a judging stint and some form of "enforcement" may be required for some.

How about inflating the entry fee ( It would have to be substantial) but those who carry out their judging stint get the entry fee put back to the usual level.

I appreciate this introduces another layer of admin but it might be worth it?

Could the committee engage the coaches on this subject and lobby for their help/co-operation, after all it is in their interest too that races go ahead which they clearly cant if there are not enough officials to run them.

[Dee]

How about inflating the entry fee ( It would have to be substantial) but those who carry out their judging stint get the entry fee put back to the usual level.

I appreciate this introduces another layer of admin but it might be worth it?

No, it wouldn't be worth it! Keeping track of who has and hasn't done their stint and then giving part refunds to those that do and having those that say they did but weren't spotted. Nightmare! I'd rather run around like a stressed headless chicken for 48hours

[boatmum]

Enough said !

So back to if you don't do your stint you're DQ'd - still requires a who has and hasn't done their stint though

[BaldockBabe]

Enough said !

So back to if you don't do your stint you're DQ'd - still requires a who has and hasn't done their stint though

I agree. We should enforce the rules that we have.

Though I note that sprint appears to have a penalty system (see the end of the results here - http://canoeracing.org.uk/sprint/wp-con ... s_1505.pdf) whereby there is a fine payable if you get 4 points or more. I am not sure a £10 fine will detract people from doing their judging stints but it is always useful to look at what other sports do...

[SilverSurfer]

I think the title of this thread is quite appropriate “.... what is the Question?” – have we not gone off at a slight tangent to the original discussion point?

[John Sturgess]

Quite Right, Silver Surfer: time for another reminder.

From my starter post:

"Try this one: the problem is that there are more people who want to race, and are capable of racing, on rough water (say, the Washburn upwards) than there are race slots available for the number of races they want to do. In other words, we have TOO MANY CUSTOMERS.

NOT, please notice, too many paddlers in Div 1: the size of Div 1 is an artificial construct: we can put the barrier between Prem & Div 1, and between Div 1 and Div 2, where we like. So creating an extra division will only work if they can have all their races on the standard of water used for Prem/Div 1 races.

So at the start of the season:
Prem: 175 (including half of Prem/1 C2's)
Div 1: 319 (including half of Prem/1 C2's)
Div 2: c.200 (351 + C2's: but from my observations at least 200 Div 2 paddlers can perform creditably on the Washburn)

Making a total of over 700, who on previous performance will need an average of 10+ race slots each (I still have to recalculate that). That is 7000 race slots: which with race limits of 200 would mean 35 races at that level.

And this year we have provided 33 races at that level: but of course Prem races do not actually provide 200 slots; and some of the slots have been taken up with selection, Pan-Celtic etc.

As I have suggested before: we should not be talking about judging, timing teams, etc until we have decided on the basic question: are we going to provide the necessary number of race slots? If we want to sufficiently, we can overcome the obstacles.

I am particularly puzzled by the problems with making it a club-based sport, and getting judges that way: that is how it is done abroad; that is how it is done at the Interclubs; and British Sprint paddlers have their entries submitted by their Clubs! The same people would end up judging; but the organiser would not have to worry about it.

[Nick Taylor]

I think we ended up down a rabbit hole talking about judges because I was exploring how we could get more race slots in our existing event – admitting that we are nervous about running longer as our volunteers would be overstretched (same people taking the course down on Sunday night as put it up during the week)

(The posts on judging have given me some ideas & inspiration for our event in June so thanks for them all.)

BUT I don’t think judging is the big issue for us. I reckon we’d get judges if we ran more race slots….

It probably comes down to being more organised. So I guess I’m taking this thread in the direction of: “How can the slalom community help event organisers be more organised so that that they feel confident in providing race slots per weekend” or even running another event (Shepperton) the weekend after the last event.

If you think this should be a separate thread I’ll start one.

[Dee]

.....
"Try this one: the problem is that there are more people who want to race, and are capable of racing, on rough water (say, the Washburn upwards) than there are race slots available for the number of races they want to do. In other words, we have TOO MANY CUSTOMERS.
... are we going to provide the necessary number of race slots? ....

I accept we have gone off topic. However the reason for this is that, so far, everyone who has expressed an opinion has indicated that they think we should increase capacity rather than reduce customers. So we have moved on to the "how".

If someone thinks that the reverse is true then no doubt we can go back on track , but if we just stick to the original question and everyone is in agreement then this thread might just die quite quickly.

So does anyone disagree ie does anyone think we should reduce customers and keep number of race slots the same (or fewer)?