Opening dates for entries -Personal Discussion thread

[Canadian Paddler]

So this is purely personal, and put out there to see what reactions there are.

This year we have had people trying to enter more than six months in advance of a race, causing mayhem for organisers and making their job harder, longer, and more stressful. Think of LesF, as entries are already coming in, theoretically he needs to arrange to separate mail by day, any time he goes away, for almost the rest of the year. Really? You think he will do that again.

We currently have priority given to home division entries up to the Friday four weeks before the competition, and late entry fees after the Friday 2 weeks before. With all entries treated as ‘first come first served’.

How does the community feel about a change to:

• Entries Open on the Friday, 1 month before the competition. The organiser is not expected or required to do anything with any entries until that date.
• When entries open, they are accepted in ranking order, not date order. So home division paddlers get first places, then paddle up entries in ranking order.
• Entries are only complete if they are accompanied by the correct entry fee, payable at the date entries are opened. Cheques are not banked until after entries open.
• As soon as possible after entries open, a list of accepted entries is published on line.
• After entries open, and the backlog is processed, entries are accepted as received, with no priority to any division until the race is full.
• Once the race is full, no further entries are accepted, except to make an event quorate.
• Late entry fees are payable by all entries received later than the Friday 2 weeks before the competition.

If you are OK with that, then

1. What is ‘ranking order’? Bib order (easy for organiser) or the provisional ranking from canoeslalom? This is harder for organisers to manage, but could be automated with a change to the bib download to show absolute ranking positions.
2. If provisional ranking, as at what date? Rolling would be a nightmare, so I would suggest ranking as at the date the entries open.
3. How do you differentiate between a C1M paddle up (10th out of 40 in the division) and a K1M (49th out of a division of 200) when accepting entries in ranking order.
4. Do we accept that if the competition has a limit of 250, and already has 247 entries, but the next post brings 5 more entries, the organiser can accept all five, then declare the competition full?
5. How does electronic entries fit into this? Do we make teh electronic entry system available when entries open and not beofre? or 1 week earlier?

OK so are there any comments? Am I mad – well we know the answer to that, but does this have merit, how would you tune it? Should I consider getting it to a motion to come in next year?

Reminder PERSONAL madness not in any official capacity.

[boatmum]

Here is my three penneth for its worth

I think a month before the competition is too short - I would say 2 months. The reason for this is if someone is away a month before they are allowed to send in an entry it's a problem, whereas paddlers are less likely to be away 2 months before an event

Agree with acceptance in Home Division ranking order first but then followed by PU entries in date received order (see below)

Yes agree - in order for an entry to be valid everything has to be in place - properly completed card (or equivalent the organiser is using eg on line, money etc) I would say cheques can be banked from a month before the event?

I would say a list of accepted entries published a couple of weeks after entries open (this being the "backlog") - it might be an idea to let all organiser know how the drop box system works - because that has been very successful I think for both the LV and the Cardiff races

Then correct entries processed in date order after the backlog has been published

agree with last 2 bullet points

Ranking order for home division- as at start of season - anything else too complicated in my view

Paddle ups may have to be processed on a by date received - to obviate the difficulty as described

agree with 4

I feel electronic entry should be treated same way as postal entry - it is faster to electronically enter rather than snail mail so an additional week is not required also opening earlier for electronic entry potentially penalises those who cant dont possess the technology

[BaldockBabe]

Why ranking order not date order? Why should those higher in the rankings get priority over those lower in the rankings?

Just wanting to know the logic...

[boatmum]

My assumption was if you are allowing some time between opening entries up and then publishing the backlog it would be easier on the organiser to publish the backlog in ranking order. That said the difficulties of PU still exists

[stevepearson]

Open 10 weeks before so people can arrange accommodation

Difficult to do ranking order if or example limit is 150 & you are ranked 1st but enter as the 151st entry then someone who was on the provisional list will come off.

Online is the way to go - even with enhanced fee to cover costs its as cheap as stamps & envelope and will save time filling out all of those cards


I think its good for a motion CP

[djberriman]

Why ranking order, why should I get the last chance at an entry? Makes no sense at all. What if your event becomes full on the opening day which is likely to happen?

[djberriman]

One reason for entries been sent in six months early is many of us plan that far ahead, indeed I book my accomodation for Tully each year at least 6 months ahead (as do Yorkshire Slalom). I know I am going to be there the week before the event and I want to ensure I get an entry as I'd hate to spend the week training there (having booked accomodation, time off, got the family organised) and not race.

Similarly with any long distance trip (Llandysul, Tryeryn to some extent) I have to ensure everything is booked including my wife's time off work well in advance to ensure we can go. For Tully Jenny usually comes up by train later in the week and has to book tickets months in advance to make it viable.

The only issue I really see is that of cheques and the organiser can easily make it known (perhaps we could add it to the details on Nick's site) how they want that handling.

I've already got entries for Howsham in July already which has never been full so it's not just a case of people sending off entries to full events.

In some ways surely it is easier to have entries spread over time rather than over a couple of weeks.

It's only a short while ago we were all moaning about having loads of late entries and struggling to guess how many toilets we need, indeed there is a point, there are lots of things at sites like Howsham which aren't plug and play have to be booked well in advance.

Are we trying to fix something which isn't broken with this? What will be the net results, not a lot except arguments over cheques.

I do however realise some people have issues lots of cheques being cashed at the start of the season, it doesn't help with financial planning.

[Canadian Paddler]

A few musings on the posts so far

THANK YOU Nice to get thought out reactions.

The idea of an entry opening date is to give organisers a break, not to have to log and track entries for months. No I am not saying you cannot send your entry off in advance, if that is easier boatmum, but that does not force the organiser to do anything with them. \savig Dave Royle's table for eating off for a bit longer. I admit I am a nerd and would be logging them as they arrive. But I do not care really if it is 1 month, six weeks, or whatever. I picked 1 month as that was the 'priority entry deadline' when host division stop getting priority.

I suggested ranking order as I do not believe any event does not have enough space for host division paddlers, so there will be no affect there, but In my view, many of the earliest entries are from paddle up competitors. So if it is better to take up paddle up spaces at a division 1 event for someone who was promoted out of division 2 at the end of season, but then sent off entries in November for all the next years' div 1 events? Or to prioritise those at the middle / top of the division so more likely to race the course rather than survive? That's why I was thinking of ranking when the race opens, so that if you are screaming up the divisions you increase the chances of getting an entry. (yes thsi could be the afore mentioned end of season promottee).

Steve, until the event is open for entries, there will be no provisional list, the first you will see will be the list of entrants, in ranking order. The entry that is not accepted could be the afore mentioned div 2 promotee (just checked, no promotions thsi year so not getting atr anyone (phew). After that list entries are on a date received basis, so if you are on that first list of entries, you are IN, confirmed. Just like you are now at the priority entry deadline (yes four weeks)

No arguemnts on line is the future (thanks Dee, Alan and others who are trialling things)

So keep responding / thinking of if this is good, or fiddling while Rome burns, or solving a problem that is not there. Remember we had requests for how do I enter some races immediatley after the ACM, and the largest number of early entries for April prem were paddler up.

I will try to come up with some other discussion points later in the year, just to keep 'we happy few' chewing the fat.

BTW id any organiser wants to try drop box just contact me and I will walk you through it. Other file sharing methods are available like google docs or putting on your web page, just need to publish the links. Knock yourselves out folks!

[CeeBee]

Why should entries received first, be accepted first?

Another option worthy of consideration is that all entries received before a 'cutoff' date (10 weeks before a race say), would be treated equally. If the event is oversubscribed for the host division by the cutoff date, e.g. 200 entries received but only 180 places, then 180 entries would be selected at random.

(There would need to be some account taken for how to deal with multiple entries from 1 paddler so that if they get K1W , they would also get C1W for example and take account of family entries so that if 1 paddler gets an entry, the rest of the family also get an entry).

This would let those that are promoted to Div 1 (which is where the problem arises) in say May, to be able to enter Div 1s later in the season knowing that the 'cutoff' date has not passed. It would also allow people to manage their finances accordingly.

This 'cutoff' date could also be used as the 'cheque cashing'/'payment taken date' i.e. no payments taken before this point. If payment is unsuccessful (cheques bounced, bank transfer unsuccessful) then the entry would be invalid and the next on the waiting list would get the place.

At this 'cutoff' date, if the entry limit is not reached, all entries received would get a place and then any further entries would be accepted on a first come first served basis.

[Hydrasports]

I'm glad a discussion has been started as from the tone of all the organiser's posts about their races this year, entries seem to be becoming a seriously time consuming, frustrating issue. If something doesn't change then we risk losing organisers and then races which will only perpetuate the problem.

I've been entering slaloms for over 15 years and cannot think of a time (other than to ask an organiser if it is ok for us to attend their event with the trade stand) that I have had to email organisers about my entry. I have not once had an entry lost in the post and can't really understand why organisers are getting so many emails - all the information is provided for you to enter the event, what else do you need to know? This is clearly something that is adding to the workload of organisers - it would be interesting to know what people are emailing about?

RE entries for 2017 onwards:
Yes- there should defninitely be an 'opening date' for entries. This would be easier to enfore if all entries were received electronically (maybe one for the future).
4,8,10 weeks before - its difficult - there needs to be a balance between having anough time to pre-book accommodation/time off work etc, presumably there is an optimum time that organisers would also like to get an idea of numbers by to help with their planning.
Yes the host division's entries should be taken first before paddle-ups.
NO NO NO it should not be done off ranking order. This will pereptuate the problem of getting an entry for anyone promoted during the season (people struggled after promotion from div2>1 last year to get entries for the last few races of the season if I remember correctly). Its also not fair - yes, the people at the top of the division are more likely to win and get promoted. However, this goes back to the same argument about portable points favouring those in the sport to fly up through the rankings rather than encouraging those who have paddled for years, continue to enjoy their paddling and race at a set level to keep paddling. We need to keep these people in the sport as a lot of them are the people organising events, coaching and providing ongoing support.

Entries received before the opening date should be kept by the organisers in order of date of receipt - that way the organiser doesn't have to take the entry out of the envelope until the opening date and then processed in that order. If an event is oversubscribed at the opening date then it would be a nightmare for the organiser to try to calculate percentages of paddles for each class to accept to be fair to everyone. Yes this will probably mean that people will send off entries early so organisers won't get the respite they would do with the ranking order system but at least they can put them in a box for a few months .

Just seen Cee Bees response about accepting entries all from the same family - logical but again unfair to the single person entering a race in one class who enters at the same time as the family where everyone is doubling/tripling up.

[Hydrasports]

It would be interesting to hear from organisers how many very early (>3months before race) entries are being received. I apologised to at least 2 organisers last year for sending early entries at the beginning of the year when the first few races started to get full v early. The prospect of entering for Llandysul in October in March seemed ridiculous but I got the feeling lots of people would be thinking and doing the same - is this true or are we panicking a bit?

[CeeBee]

I wasn't proposing that families took precedence over single paddlers, only that when you came to select entries at the cutoff date, if you selected 1 family member, then the others were selected too. So if you randomly selected 180 people and the 20th person had a sibling, then this sibling got a place as the 21st paddler before moving onto the 22nd,23rd entry etc.

However, the main problem seems to be demand in Div 1 exceeds supply which this this thread isn't here to address.

Those of us who entered races before e-mail, sent of our entries, waited patiently for the start list to be posted out and then turned up and raced. We probably still work to this and just use canoe slalom to get the start list rather than waiting for the post. The next generation automatically use e-mail and are used to online instant information. That is progress and so until we make all the information readily available in advance, paddlers and their parents will e-mail to ask a wide variety of questions because they can.

Maybe we could try to collate some of the frequently asked Questions and Answers to organisers and post on the CanoeSlalom website for people to check before they e-mail the organiser their query. It may cut down some of the queries.

[Dee]

An opening date seems the way to go, but I'd argue that entries received before the opening date should be shredded!

So set the opening date say 10 weeks before the event. Entries received before that date are binned, entries after that date are prioritised in date order (subject to host/paddle up rules). Yes you might happen to be on holiday at the optimum posting time, but only for one event, so you don't risk losing out for whole year.

Also fairer on promotees, who might get a chance to enter the new division which would otherwise be full.

Far less complicated than algorithms to compare rankings cross class (which sounds complex for organisers and unfair on lower ranked paddlers who may never get an entry).

Easier for organisers as time limited and no responsibility to hold onto cheques. Cheques to be valid on arrival.

Costs spread out for paddlers even if cheques paid in on receipt, or if using online entry.

Online entry and postal entries open at same time

Taking this a step further we could also say that paddle up entries received more than 4wks before event will also be shredded

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CP I don't think it is true that host division paddlers can be guaranteed a place, especially whilst double division events exist.

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Regarding emails - most common:
- I've sent you my entry, can you enter Joe blogs I will send money tomorrow, please reserve a place for John smith, have you received my entry........
In other words it is people trying to circumvent the standard entry process! I've lost count of how many of these I've had.

Other than a small number of emails about the online system (perfectly valid as I have invited them!) I have had one genuine query!

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Going forwards:
I would like to see us doing away with postal entries altogether and moving to online system for oak divP/1/2/3 events. I don't think this can be achieved immediately, as we need a well-trialled, reliable, mature, and fairly sophisticated system, but it should be the aim for 2019.

I genuinely believe this would be the fairest method and most transparent, giving immediate response as to whether your entry is accepted.

It is also in line with the rest of the world in just about all walks of life!

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Regarding 5 entries arriving simultaneously for 3 positions, I would probably just stretch the entry limit (more often than not a subsequent cancellation or no show would resolve the issue in any case). If it was 50 for 3 though I'd just pick 3 out of a hat.

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[Toomuchtooyoung]

I am guilty (or just organised ), in that I send off slalom entries very early, for 2 reasons,
firstly entering slalom is expensive, I am happy to camp in the warmer weather but don't think it benefits me or my child in cold weather, also you're often talking of a 4+ hour drive on a Friday evening and frankly I don't want to arrive at 11pm to put a tent up in the dark, that said I need to find the cheapest accomodation possible, which usually means booking early and no cancellation option. I don't want to book somewhere and then find we can't get a race entry. Try booking a hostel place near to a slalom event, you've got to be on the ball to get a bed.
Secondly for those where we are spending a few days training, I need to book time off work. Its actually really useful to have one sport where I know where we'll be over a 12 month period.

Its no mean feat organising any event and if people are not following the procedure either by post or online then thats unfair and inconsiderate, but the community also needs to acknowledge the commitment required and the cost of getting our kids to these events, even saving £20 by booking a travel lodge early can mean the difference between being able to attend another event or not.

[Dee]

A thought

I don't think this would work for postal entries as it would be a nightmare for organisers, but if we go with online entries......

We could have a places release system, so say 200 places available .....
100, online bookings only, released at the start of the year, host division only, when they are gone they are gone (no waiting list at this point)
100 released 10 weeks before event, host division only, when they are gone them waiting list kicks in.
Paddle ups open 4wks before event

Postal entries received before the 10 week mark would be shredded (assuming we accept postal entries at all!). Possibly not publish organiser's details until this point.

This would
- give those that like to book ahead the option to do so
- give those that can't book ahead (financial reasons, not promoted yet, waiting for shift patterns etc) a reasonable chance of still getting an entry