Opening dates for entries -Personal Discussion thread

[BaldockBabe]

Just another thought to add into the mix...

Many of the volunteers, whether it be at the host club, timing team, judging etc volunteer because they have family members competing. Is there not a risk that IF their entry is not "selected" we lose that volunteer?

I know from the members of the timing team (and I assume it is the same for the other volunteers) we ask for the list of events that people can assist at at the start of the year. I know that is when some members put in their entries/ their family members entries.

I agree that organisers should not have to deal with entries before a set deadline but I don't think paddlers should be prevented from sending the entries early.

[boatmum]

I was having another think about this last night and it seems to me there are 2 issues here

Entrants emailing organisers for updates etc - has my entry been received etc etc - resulting in additional unwanted work for the organiser

post dated cheques or cheques where the date on them expires before they can be banked

a thought:

Folk can send their entries off to organisers whenever they like - on the outside of the envelope mark the race ref - so prem race 1 Div 1 race1 etc

Organisers do not have to put up a start list earlier than 2 months before the race - acceptance of entry in order of post stamp on envelope - that way organisers dont even have to open the envelope before the entry open date of they dont want to

No emails to organiser before the entry open date - in my experience accommodation etc can be provisionally booked in advance and then cancelled if needs be - I have done it many many times over race cancellations, failure of water release at the last minute etc

If a card is incorrectly filled in - it is not the organisers problem but the responsibility of the paddler/ or whoever is filling it in for the paddler. Its not a difficult thing to fill in I dont think is fair to expect organisers to be looking at entries so early to make sure they have been correctly filled in. If there is an issue with filling in entries correctly then there is bound to be someone at the paddler's club who can help.

The date on the cheque can be left blank if the race is more than 6 months away so the organiser can put in the date a couple of weeks before the race.

I dont know about anyone else, but we have always waited to look at the start list once it has been published on canoe slalom - the only time we have had to contact an organiser before the race is when some detail or other has been incorrectly put on the start list. I am pretty sure this is the experience of the majority.

I am unsure where the en mass "panic" to enter so early has come from, and the trouble is "putting on my psychologists hat now" panic will breed panic /anxiety in others. I think that maybe a scheme / process is now necessary to stem the spread of panic/anxiety about entering or this situation will continue to escalate.

[PeterC]

On line is indeed the way to go and many thanks for Dee in expending the time and effort to move this forward.

I think one month is too short and would favour probably 3 months. I would agree with Dee opening date is the same for electronic and on line and prior entries are shredded/ignored.

On line will deal in large part with the multitude of eMails wanting confirmation of entry.

As with Dee if I get five entries on the same day and have three spaces left they will all get an entry and we will cope.

NO I do not want to go to entry by ranking order it will just make the whole thing more complicated and is not in the case of Div 1 where we do have full races likely to be equitable. Entries qualify as they are received.

Cheques should be valid when they arrive and still be valid at the time of racing. They should not be cashed early and I would suggest no earlier than 2 weeks prior to the race.

The biggest problem for organisers is dealing with the consequences of a full race. This can lead to torrent of sometimes very angry communication from those that have failed to get an entry. I don't have a solution but ultimately paddlers have to accept that this can and will continue to happen as there are unfortunately only so many hours in a day and this is outwit the control of the organisers.

[PeterC]

CP- as to the question of your madness:-
- asking difficult and impossible questions - guilty
- having an encyclopaedic knowledge of the rules - guilty
- continuing to devote an inordinate amount of your time to keeping this sport up and running - guilty
- dragging your long suffering wife along to get involved as well - guilty
- suggesting we might be fiddling while Rome burns - guilty and I have no expectation of an imminent major city wide conflagration in Rome

Verdict overall..... Guilty but thanks for all your effort anyway...

[Dee]

Folk can send their entries off to organisers whenever they like - on the outside of the envelope mark the race ref - so prem race 1 Div 1 race1 etc

Organisers do not have to put up a start list earlier than 2 months before the race - acceptance of entry in order of post stamp on envelope - that way organisers dont even have to open the envelope before the entry open date of they dont want to

I've just been away for a week. Come back to a small pile of entries several of which are not post stamped (or post stamp is illegible). I've had to guess based on position in the pile. Although to be honest this is for adding to a long waiting list and I suspect none of them will get a place so positioning probably not critical!

I also suspect that many will fail to mark the envelope.

No emails to organiser before the entry open date

But how do you achieve that. Like it or not, no list up and paddlers will email organisers to see if their entry has arrived. We can ignore them but tend to feel bad about it. Contrary to recent appearances on the chatter boards, most (probably all) organisers want to help, we want to give all the paddlers a place and we want everyone to enjoy the race. It's just that .....

If a card is incorrectly filled in - it is not the organisers problem but the responsibility of the paddler/ or whoever is filling it in for the paddler. Its not a difficult thing to fill in .

No, it isn't difficult but people make mistakes, forget to sign their cheques, have lousy writing. They are human.

I am unsure where the en mass "panic" to enter so early has come from, and the trouble is "putting on my psychologists hat now" panic will breed panic /anxiety in others. I think that maybe a scheme / process is now necessary to stem the spread of panic/anxiety about entering or this situation will continue to escalate.

Last year's full races and paddlers missing out has led to this major escalation. It isn't going to go away whilst races fill up

[Dee]

Slightly radical, but how about

do away with the calendar in the year book.
Only publish organisers details when competition opens for entry.

Yes, people might guess based on last year, but it might just give pause for thought.

Off Topic, but
Would be useful for organisers if we are warned when details are to be published. I would have requested 2/3 days delay and been more prepared

[Dee]

The biggest problem for organisers is dealing with the consequences of a full race. This can lead to torrent of sometimes very angry communication from those that have failed to get an entry. I don't have a solution but ultimately paddlers have to accept that this can and will continue to happen as there are unfortunately only so many hours in a day and this is outwit the control of the organisers.

I haven't had any abuse but some are clearly angry and there really is little I can do. I do HATE turning people away, especially when they are club members. For many people our event was full before they realised entries were open.

[Dee]

Just another thought to add into the mix...

Many of the volunteers, whether it be at the host club, timing team, judging etc volunteer because they have family members competing. Is there not a risk that IF their entry is not "selected" we lose that volunteer?

I know from the members of the timing team (and I assume it is the same for the other volunteers) we ask for the list of events that people can assist at at the start of the year. I know that is when some members put in their entries/ their family members entries.

I agree that organisers should not have to deal with entries before a set deadline but I don't think paddlers should be prevented from sending the entries early.

And a corresponding thought. Should volunteers have prioritised entry. If they do then who is included in the priority. Our canteen organiser's daughter nearly missed out. If she had done so would we have (understandly) found ourselves without a canteen. One year (when they were still competing) I nearly forgot to enter David and Forbes. If I did that this year would it be reasonable for me to let them jump the list.

[Canadian Paddler]

Random acts part whatever...

How about then:

• Entries open x weeks before the competition
• Entries recieved before this date are dumped in a bag
• On the day that entries open, entries are selected at random
• If the entry is a paddle up it is put into a second bag
• If it is a host division, and there is space, it is an entry
• If no space then the waiting list is started
• On priority entry deadline
• entries are taken from the paddle up bag at random
• ]If there is space, it is an entry
• If no space then the waiting list is started / added to
• After that entries are dealt with on a 'as received' basis.

It is not possible to please everyone we cannot manage to allow people to enter in advance and guarantee accomodation, but leave spaces for recent promotion
The ACM decided that 4 weeks was sufficiently early to allow paddle ups to be guaranteed an entry, so we cannot make that earlier.

As noted elsewhere, populare events taht are multi divisional make this worse as they are more prone to filling up, but events need to make a profit.

I am not kean on shredding any entries received before the open date as that feels arbitrary as one post the are shreded the next are not an teh entrant has no way to conttrol that.

The 'bag' can be a (5p) plastic bag, or could be a database file / spreadsheet. Randomising the entries in a database / spreadsheet is not that difficult on open / priority deadlines, and allows for online entry, or bits of cardboard.

Wonder how many pages we can get thsi to? At least we should get a reasonable view of any possible motions in advance

[CeeBee]

Ignoring the complexities of this proposal and others, we are trying to create an entry system that supports families and paddlers plan and enter races , book accommodation and sort out holidays from work with having a system which is manageable for organisers many of whom are also working full time.

So, how about in January of each season, a paddler can go online and choose 3-5 events as their priority events. At the end of January, a list is published of who has a priority place at each event (we could allow say 100 priority places per event).

This would allow families to select the key events they want to race at and know they are guaranteed a place.

There is then an event 'open' date say 3 months before each race, where all can enter with priority going to the priority places. Priority places would have say 2-3 weeks from the 'open' date to enter after which they are no longer a priority place. All other entries are first come first served.

[Dee]

CP. one of the downsides to your tombola suggestion is that it effectively ties us in to the postal system as we will need to do the draw before opening on line entries. So to be on the safe side paddlers will send in postal entries. Since online is probably better for everyone in the longer term I think we need to be careful about locking our systems into a manual process.

[Sven]

With a tin hat firmly screwed onto my head
Are we not in danger in overly complicating the situation again?

I think what is really needed is more div 1 races - i know, i know who is going to run them etc etc etc but with more races paddlers can then be restricted to entering a max number in any one season which would ease the oversubscription issue and open opportunities for paddleup entrants.

Maybe our energies need to be spent recruiting more race organisers. However the more challenging/complex the powers that be make it for organisers the less likely people are to step up. But I still think there would be mileage in the clubs being talked to about this rather than relying on individuals stepping up. This could be affected through the national governing bodies? ie approach the full time paid canoeing staff to help? I have a suspicion that they are not often asked for help of this nature.

Is there mileage in the committee discussing a plan with the governing bodies to help get more clubs to organise more races where needed? I appreciate it is not an easy task - venues, suitable water etc, personnel etc but ultimately if people cant race then Im thinking they will leave the sport.

[Canadian Paddler]

Dee
'Bag could be two part - electronic via an entry system and physical. Means an extra step for electronic entry system, but would allow people to know they were properly in the queue.

Sven
Another option might be (paradoxically) to reduce teh number of Div 1s. Before shooting me, just think that if we increase the number of singles we could have a split of classes across the two days. Groupings as per the ICF event groups, or K1M one day teh other classes the other day. Effectively doubling the number of entries at each event.

I am sure this will continue, here and on the river bank

[stevepearson]

Most of the comments are pretty consistent - but there is an underlying message

............... Capacity is still an issue (or perceived to be anyway)


So if there was room then everyone in the div will get an entry is only the opening date is an issue - just needs to be agreed.


CP - i'm not trying to hijack your thread, just saying what i see. Capacity should be a separate motion

[Sven]

CP

that would work too!

Steve

I expect if paddlers had more confidence they would get an entry then the application early issue would calm down.