Organiser Nightmares

[the_c1_fish]

Just wanted to put this out there to all those paddlers and parents sending entries out now.

Please, please, please..... Please fill out your cards correctly. I am organising entries for 3 events this year so it is difficult enough without having to double check every detail.

- Please make sure you send the correct entry fee. A single Prem/Div 1 entry is £19.25. A Double Entry is £31. If you are entering as a paddle up you pay the fee for the division you are paddling up to. If you are entering a Prem race on a Saturday and a Division 1 Race on the Sunday you will need to pay 2 single entry fees as they are to seperate races. I don't think I need to mention Late Fees anymore....

- However the Tees Race is enhanced entry fees £25 for the Saturday Prem and £25 for the Sunday Div 1.

- I will not reserve a spot for you. If you want to enter send me your entry with ALL of your details and the CORRECT entry fee. If you have run out of cheques, as it seems many of you have, send cash. I will not enter you unless your entry is correct.

- If you are paddling up as well as paddling in the host division send different cheques. As I'm sorry to say you are very unlikely to get you paddle up entry accepted as the event will most likely fill first.

- If an event is like the Tees Barrage Prem/ Division 1 races why not send different cheques for each day to make it easier if you don't get in on one day. Lots of paddlers have entered for the Prem on the Saturday as a Paddle Up and then as a ranked paddlers on the Division 1 Race on the Sunday. Send a cheque for each day to avoid having to send a new cheque or receive a refund.


- The most important point however is to make your entry readable. If you have poor hand writing then use a computer and print all your information off and send it to me. If you can print off your information then get a friend to write your entry for you.

[JimW]

I almost misunderstood what you meant about Tees barrage but I have that now, it does still leave me with some questions about double events and multiple classes.
(General questions - I probably haven't entered any of your events)

Firstly - have I been filling my cards in right? Actually I'm not even sure if I have been consistent!

- Am I supposed to write the double fee on both cards, or only on one card and leave the other blank, or half the double fee on each?

- If I enter K1 and C1 in the same event am I supposed to write the full fee for both, or discounted fee for one of them?

- If I enter a double event in K1 and C1 what is the result of combining the first 2 questions?

- At present I am in different divisions in K1 and C1 and sent separate cheques. If I am in the same division is it OK to send a single cheque for everything or better to send separate cheques for each class in case I get promoted out of one of them?

- Presumably the number of paddlers who get promoted on the first day of a double is so low that you don't want separate cheques for each day normally, only Teeside because it is different divisions each day?

How many other people have been unsure about this and just sent entries in anyway?

[djberriman]

Can I echo the point about filling your cards out correctly, don't guess or make up your bib number, make sure you use the correct bib number and fill in both sides (except the result!) and ensure it is signed.

I may well resort to putting a C on the RTC this year so you can come and complete your card(s) before you race.

Please don't email organisers asking them if entries have been received for events that are many months away, imagine if every paddler does that! I am sure if they are getting anywhere near their limit they will produce an entry list which you can check. Many organisers will be running more than one event or helping at other events and will be focused on the up and coming ones.

[Dee]

I am mystified as to why I am still receiving emails asking if I have received an entry and/or can enter someone by email.

The paddlers concerned must have got my email from canoeslalom.co.uk on which is posted a link to the entries I have received (including a long waiting list). So why email me? Is it laziness?

I wonder whether it is time to stop publishing organiser emails on the web site?

[Sven]

In my experience in other areas - people do not read things thoroughly any more

We live in a society of short sound bites which a lot of the time removes the need to actually read and process what we read. This in turn leads to, not laziness, but a lack of practice of reading and assimilation of the information.

It is interesting that in this thread no one has answered Jim's queries re cards. Is this because different organisers have different processes? The query looks genuine to me and despite a couple of organisers posting about their nightmares no one has answered Jim to help him stop what he clearly sees as potentially causing issues, Im afraid I can't help as I don't know the answers but I'm sure someone does.

From posts in the various threads - it looks like there are many different "processes" going on depending on the race and the organiser's personal preferences regarding how entry etc should happen. I think this is fair enough as organisers are volunteers and should be allowed to organise the race admin - within reason - how they want.

I think Dee is right - organisers should not publish their e-mail addresses until nearer the race date if they dont want constant e-mails and if they are confident in the entry system they are using.

As a personal observation - I really dont think many paddlers actually look at chatter. It would be useful to take a poll perhaps when paddlers are applying for their bibs next time to save additional work. The majority of paddlers I know dont use chatter - or indeed actually read it. So finding out why not would perhaps be useful going forward.

[JimW]

My questions are real.

I always make what I think is a sensible decision when filling in the fees sections of my cards, but I'm starting to think I have done it different ways.

With respect to the cheques, that will depend on how different organisers do their banking so maybe there aren't definitive answers, just need to read the instructions per event. Fortunately I'm old school and do read stuff properly, usually.

[Debs]

Why, instead of criticising people's intelligence which I and others find very rude, can race organisers not all follow the same procedure for entries.
The simple way to resolve this situation would be for the governing body to put out how to complete your entry card, then all race organisers and paddlers should follow that.
Yes there will be errors on both sides as we are all human and make mistakes. I challenge the person that says they haven't!
We have been sending in entry cards for five years and not once has anyone put out any correct methods of completing entry cards
For example - for double event cost entry on cards.
You just have to guess. How new paddlers get on I don't know?
As for entries received if they were put on the main site as a link this would quite obviously reduce the emails to organisers as paddlers will be able to see there entry and only need to email if there is an error or query.
As for chatter, I have spoken to many juniors and most of them didn't even know that chatter existed, and therefore would not have gone there for entry confirmation. They expected it to be on the calendar as a link.
Paddlers are wanting to confirm entries so they can book accommodation and parents can book time off work to bring them. If paddlers can't do this then they will only attend the races they can confirm their entry. After all if you have no where to stay your not going to go!

[Canadian Paddler]

Debs

I am sure that it was not criticism of intelligence where honest confusion exists, just frustration at having to do simple things repeatedly.
When I am sorting entries

• I do not particularly pay any attention to how much is written in the entry fee section (others may do). I look at what is entered; work out the cost and the cheque. If they are the same I am happy, and I move on to logging everything. I do not use it, so did not answer the question about what should be put in the card. I have been paddling long enough to know that when this part of the card was designed there were no double events, or multi class discounts. We just have not reviewed that part of the card.
• Some things are frustrating, when you have to complete them for the 50th time, it is wearing. e.g. Your Bib number is on both sides of the card, as is your name. The number on the side of the cards with the scores is very useful when dealing with a stack of cards, and essential when posting cards with results. So If someone misses it, I have to enter it. Frustrating when it has to be done repeatedly.
• If you are not paddling up, I am happy to have one cheque for all entries. If you are paddling up and competing in a ranked division then a separate cheque for the paddle up makes it easier if you do not get a paddle up place. It enables the organiser to just destroy a cheque rather than asking you to come to control and write another. This is also why HPP / Tees ask for separate cheques, as you may have an entry for your host division, but not get a paddle up place.
• I agree the number of people that get promoted at an event is low enough to make it not necessary to have separate cheques for each day.
• Everything runs off the Bib Number. If you guess and put the wrong one on, rather than just logging the entry I have to get out my yearbook and scan the entire division for your name. My name is easy to find, I am conditioned to find it, yours takes longer. Try doing that ten times in a night, after work, and do not feel frustrated.
• By the way your bib number is in fact three times on each card. Once with the results, once in the main part of the details, and once on the end. These are for recognising the card when results are up, once with name etc. to make it easy to log the details and once on the end, so that if you stand behind the results board it is easier to find a particular card. I do not expect all three to be completed, as few people who do not run competitions know the use of the one at the end.
• A plea (where I know I was guilty) if you can write your email address clearly, it makes any communication with you so much easier. For example for the Lee Valley Prem, I have sent an email each night, blind copying everyone where I could read the address. This reduces paddler stress, you know I have your entry, and I can let you know if there is something wrong. Without this I have to either 'Facebook stalk' people to communicate, or disappoint people, as an entry is not complete without full entry fee, and if the event is full, who gets 'bumped' first?
• Another frustration is people post dating cheques. We all handle things differently, Kelso likes to bank cheques immediately. I, and several others, do not go to the bank that often, so pays the cheques in 2 weeks before the competition. Luckily it seems the banks do not verify the date on cheques. But trying t trace back a bounced cheque to the entries it applies to . Frustrating. My own personal plea, date your cheque today or six months before the competition whichever is the alter (cheques are only valid for six months)

Please remember the 'Governing Body' do not do any of this. Entries are taken by the (volunteer) organisers, each works in a different way because we are all different, and our clubs are different and the competitions we run are different.
Cards / ranking calendar / yearbooks / Calendar are organised by the (volunteer) committee. Most of whom spent most weekends on the sport, to the detriment of their own family.

[Dee]

I very much agree with CPs sentiments.

I think when organiser's complain about cards being completed wrongly we are not referring to the amount (agreed It makes little sense for doubles) but illegible emails, wrong bib numbers etc

.....
As for entries received if they were put on the main site as a link this would quite obviously reduce the emails to organisers as paddlers will be able to see there entry and only need to email if there is an error or query.

For Shepperton a website address has been posted on the main page of Nick's website and still people email me to see if I have received their entry!

[PeterC]

Sorry but I have to disagree with CP. Our banks in Scotland do seem to check the date on the cheque as well as other details. Post dated cheques and those over six months old are rejected out of hand and we then have the hassle of chasing down the producers. The English banks seem to be perhaps much more tolerant.

I also see cheques with other errors e.g. no signature.

However that is dwarfed by the challenge of accepting BACS where because our bank does not seem able to provide on line access to our club account I have to go into the bank to request a printed statement to confirm the payment and I can only do this a maximum of once a month without attracting additional bank charges.

The problem appears to be that we are a non business account and thus pay no charges yet need double signatures for payments so remain dependent on cheques. The same is true of phone banking which is closed to us.

I agree with the comments about the challenge of the interminable eMails wanting to confirm if entries have arrived. I think this has been driven particularly by races that are full and have to close.

[Dee]

Lack of online access is an issue that most (if not all) clubs and small charities face.

Does seem crazy in this day and age

It's why most of us just refuse to accept payment by bacs just no practical way of checking it

[Canadian Paddler]

Peter C - seems like it is a bnak by bank or branch by branch thing as Kelso said

Please do not send any entry with a post-dated cheque... Or an un-dated cheque... Or an un-signed cheque.
All cheques will be presented to our bank on receipt, like any normal business.
last year our bank accepted all cheques that were post-dated for immediate processing.

in his posthttp://s397900707.websitehome.co.uk/php ... f=2&t=2669

[djberriman]

My issue with entry cards is not how they are completed (such as whether to put the fee on both cards for doubles), that I can cope with, and clearly organisers do cope with those, what causes me most issues is incomplete cards, meaning I have to lookup and complete things such as age & bib number (to ensure the correct prizes are given and points go to the correct paddler) or copy details from one side of a card to another or make a note on the system to ask for the paddler to come and sign (which adds extra work on th e day). One's with clearly wrong details such as last years bib number are very confusing especially if the paddlers name isn't written clearly or does not match that registered with the bib (especially C2's). It makes for a long job when you are putting a few hundred cards onto the system. Instead of taking 30 mins or so it ends up being a frustrating few hours which could be spent better.

I'm not expecting perfection and can cope with different ways of fees being written for doubles etc but would just ask paddlers to complete every bit of information you can on both sides and ensure it's signed. We all (including organisers) make mistakes hence why we have RTC, I've done it myself, but it'd good to keep those to minimum number possible as race days are hectic enough for the volunteers running the race, having to get cards out for amendments and put back in the right place is time consuming on what is often a stressful morning and leads to delays starting events and starting paddlers individual runs.

If there is something you unsure of such as bib number, age or the correct amount to pay a little note included with the entry is always received with thanks and helps resolve any confusion quickly.

If you do get an RTC please get it resolved asap when you get to the event to help with the smooth running of the event.

[JimW]

Thanks everyone!

I have always filled in both sides, but there was a moment first time when I was unsure because the box for the total score is amongst the others which I/we can fill in.
Basically, competitors should fill in all parts of both sides of the cards EXCEPT the bits that only the judges can fill in on the day, or the bits that don't apply (C2 and team if not entering that class)

At the start of the season everyone should know their bib number(s), the rankings were on the website before the calender.... and if you are promoted mid-year and entering before you get the new one there is a separate bit of the card to fill in so the receiving organiser knows you aren't just being lazy.

My email address is pretty short but I struggle to write it legibly, I may need to get some stickers made up.

Presumably if I (or someone else) found time to make up a guide to filling in cards it could be added to this website?

[Dee]

Related to cards. I always seem to get a couple of 'insufficient postage' cards from the post office. I don't pay and collect so these entries become 'lost in the post'. Obviously people don't mean to forget stamps, and there will be other occasions when cards are lost in the post, but it does point more towards online entry where immediate acknowledgement is received (and takes away the organiser's tedious task of recording the receipt of entries on a spreadsheet)