Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
Nick Taylor
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Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by Nick Taylor » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:26 am

(Post made in my capacity as a member of the British Canoeing Slalom Committee)

The Slalom Committee are looking at the Lower Divisions & welcome your input

For this discussion we are looking at Div 3 & Div 4
We're also interested in thoughts about those newly promoted to Div 2

So, please join the discussion around the following points:
  • What could be improved?
    What is wrong?
    Who should take action?
    Who should be involved in this discussion?
    How should the discussion take place?
This is your chance to Rant about what needs to be done & Rave about how great everything was in the olden days!

jke
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by jke » Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:22 am

More races. That’s all.

All this talk of opening dates and entries filling up and portable points largely irrelevant.

From a SW (or South) viewpoint Symonds Yat reintroduction and Dulverton good news. Loss of Loddon bad news.
John Kent

James Hastings
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by James Hastings » Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:32 pm

I would change the relationship between division 4 and the ranking system for a start.

As the person who compiles the very unofficial div 4 rankings I have some insight into retention and it's not good. Only around 30% of participants remaining in div 4 at the end of one season come back to paddle again the following season. I know that John Sturgess has also done some analysis around retention of div 4 paddlers that do get promoted and I think the % that continue with slalom is even worse (please correct me if I'm wrong John).

I think we need to get entry-level paddlers into the ranking system as quickly as possible, and here are some thoughts about how to do it:

Don't call it division 4 - call it an entry-level event/starter event/taster event, or something of that ilk. Div 3s can still be run alongside these.

Try and get all competitors involved in the entry level event into the ranking system on the day. A part of control should be set aside, with a big sign saying something along the lines of "If you enjoyed the event, why not sign up for slalom?" BC membership forms and forms requesting ranking in division 3 should be available for people to complete on the day - it might even be feasible to provide each entry-level event with a small supply of div 3 bibs that could be issued there and then to anyone that signs up.

This doesn't preclude entry level competitors who do not want to sign up on the day still going to further div 4 slaloms. All entry-level competitors should be provided with a full list of entry-level slaloms taking place that season, along with relevant email contacts.

If we could raise the retention rate from its 30% or below to around 50% that would go a long way to boosting overall numbers in the sport.

djberriman
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by djberriman » Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:56 pm

Not sure about dumping people straight in Div3 many won't have the skills and will get put off even more. Don't forget many Div 4's are done on flat water.

I'd suggestion the reason for lack of retention is many people only enter because it is their club slalom and come and have a go, in the main just because it's there or they happen to be at the event for another reason and decide to give it a go.

I'd guess many paddlers don't take up slalom as they see it as an expensive way to paddle a section of river which any other time they can do for free. That's certainly the comments I've had and other have had when trying to get club members interested in slalom.

I guess the thing to do would be to send each div 4 entrant a short and simple questionaire with an SAE. That way we would know if they will paddle again, what they enjoyed, what they didn't enjoy and why the aren't continuing in the sport.

jke
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by jke » Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:03 pm

I agree with James that we need to do something to retain new paddlers but in my region I would suggest the main reason is lack of races in sensible travelling distance.

I’m not sure getting them into the ranking system at the earliest is the way to go neither. I believe the drop-out rate is due in many cases paddlers are locked into the system at too early a stage – too many get promoted too soon. It largely depends on who they’re racing against, particularly on the Sunday of a Double where largely on the Saturday 20% have already got promoted. They get promoted before paddlers (or rather their parents) are ready to join BC and to do a lot of travelling, so they don’t race further. In my event last year a 10yo in her first race and with no specific slalom training got promoted to div 3. Her mother was distraught. Next week, no 3 weeks time, she was racing a local marathon. Maybe one thing to consider is allowing promotees to stay in div 4 for (say) their second race but maybe not being eligible for another div 4 prize, certainly not in the same weekend.

I note in marathon that there are separate J12 and J10 races which are outside of the ranking (Hasler) system. Maybe that's something to think about. J12s and J10s can choose whether to race in the rankings or not. In the example above she'd entered the separate J10.
John Kent

James Hastings
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by James Hastings » Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:23 pm

Most division 3s are run on flat or nearly flat water, so I don't see the issue. In fact out of the 71 div 4s in the calendar for this season, 48 are 3/4s, and I'm assuming on the same course (I've left out Llandysul races on the lake and shortened courses mentioned in the calendar). Thus if div 4s are incapable of handling div 3 water, why so many div 3/4 races?

djberriman
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by djberriman » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:19 am

Love it when people fix the statistics to suit their argument.

So what you are saying is around half are on flat water. Don't forget not everyone will have paddled on moving water. Slalom may be a paddlers first experience of moving water. Some clubs don't have easy access to moving water. To some paddlers moving water is an issue so it's important not to put them off.

CeeBee
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by CeeBee » Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:50 pm

New entrants to slalom fall into 3 main categories - children, students and adults.

Most adults do not participate in competitive sport. They might be happy to have a go at slalom at their local club event or other events close by but aren't likely to chase promotion to Division 1. They also aren't likely to travel the country to race. As such, an Open event to run alongside all Div 3/4 events for any paddler to race would probably suffice.

For students, they are happy to compete but again largely race for fun. The senior entry fees were too high at Div 4 but these have been abolished so competing at a Div 4 race is more affordable. Students attend some of the Scottish University events and British university events but the timing of the student year from October to June doesn't fit in with the slalom calendar which runs from March - October. Many of the older students are doing exams in the summer term and so won't organise the trips to take the paddlers to slaloms. Students are an untapped source of paddlers for Div 4.

For childrem, they are usually new to the sport when they start competing. Many of these children will try slalom but but don't give up slalom as such but give up canoeing entirely. We've found that there is a 50% drop off of children in the first year for a variety of factors - the 3 main factors for giving up are typically the commitment required from the rest of the family, fear of moving water and seeing other children who are making far better progress.

To me, it is all about creating opportunities for as many people to try slalom as possible across all areas of the country. This requires a significant volunteer force to run events. We could do with some roving organisers running mini slaloms at the clubs not involved in slalom to introduce them and the club to the sport but most volunteers are already doing more than enough. Or targeting other disciplines such as polo and sprint and running a mini slalom alongside. We don't have the manpower within the sport to do this.

The other barrier is equipment. If your club doesn't have slalom boats, it is too big a commitment to shell out for a boat until you've raced enough slaloms and you can't race enough slaloms without a boat.

James Hastings
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by James Hastings » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:33 pm

Duncan, it seems to me that you're 'fixing' the statistics to suit your argument rather than the other way around. The 2016 calendar is there for everyone to see and it's not rocket science to work out how many div 4 races are combined with div 3 ones.

Assuming that all div 3/4s are being run on some sort of moving water, then two-thirds of this year's entry-level slaloms will be run on moving rather than flat water (48 out of 71 is two thirds, not around half). Thus the assumption must be that the majority of div 4 paddlers first experience of slalom this year will be on moving, not flat, water. If there is so much concern about entry-level paddlers' ability to handle moving water, why is this so? This seems contradictory to me.

It would be interesting to look at last year's results from div 3/4 races to compare the div 4 results with the div 3 ones. My suspicion is there is probably considerable overlap in terms of results, as there are at multi-division events across all divisions. I would submit that the empirical evidence available is that entry level paddlers do not have too much of a problem coping with moving water at div 3 level (which again probably reinforces my view regarding the 'dumbing' down of water challenge below div 1, but that is a whole other bug-bear of mine).

Statistics are an essential part of any evidence base. They are not the be all and end all for sure - many other factors need to be considered and sensible interpretation of them is required - but without statistics you have no real evidence base, just conjecture, anecdote, and personal prejudice.

Incidentally, if you read my post fully I do not suggest that divisional ranking should be obligatory after a paddlers' first entry level race. Those that prefer can continue to enter as many entry-level events as they wish. However an attempt to get as many entry-level paddlers into the ranking system as soon as possible might - and I say just might, as I have no evidence base to support anything stronger without testing the theory out - produce a higher retention rate of entry level paddlers.

Dee
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by Dee » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:51 am

It's a long time since I had a son in Div 4, but the issue then was frequency and locality of Div 4s; in this respect little has changed.
Nearly 3 years ago, I ran a div 4 short course at Windsor; it was, I believe, a success with 70 entrants, many of whom subsequently attended the div 3/4 event at Shepperton 3 weeks later.
I haven't repeated it since, part of the reason as some will know is illness, BUT I did consider it this year and (apart from being wary of overdoing things) the main reasons I haven't decided to go for it are:

1) Insurance and BCU membership. In theory we should ask for all div 4 paddlers to either show a BCU card or pay for day membership, but I had a lot of paddlers saying they were covered by their club. The trouble is they had no proof of this and it depends on the type of membership the club holds. On the day I just crossed my fingers, but I won't knowingly go into this risk again.
2) I'm not confident of my own insurance cover running an event at a club of which I'm not a member (I'm not a member of the BCU)
3) The need for a Welfare Officer
4) The need for a Safety Officer
5) The need for a first aider
6) The need for three jury members (one of whom is independant from the club)
7) The lack of helpers (we coped, just, but most of the 70 paddlers had never attended a slalom before and those that had brought groups of youngsters and really did have their hands full)

So, on the basis that the original post was made on behalf of the slalom committee, what could be done to help

Points 1&2:
We need a blanket insurance to cover all div 4 events. This needs to be arranged centrally so that when a div 4 is accepted by a slalom committee representiative, all paddlers, helpers, organisers are automatically covered, whether or not the paddlers belong to the BCU.

Points 3,4,5:
There is an argument that these are even more important roles at a div 4 than any other event, but finding people to fill them is hard. I know that each slalom club should have someone, but I can't guarrantee that they will all be available on any given day, especially for events that aren't even at our club. So
Option 1) We have a timing team and a team of section judges who do a fantastic job at Prem/1 races. I wonder whether it would be possible to organise a Div 2/3/4 support team, such that everyone in the team would be trained for all three roles and CRB checked. It would then be possible for a div 4 organiser to request support from the team and know that these key roles would be covered. I do know here that I'm asking for yet another team of volunteers to be set up, but I think a central initiative here could possibly just work. If the team were all cross-trained it would only require one of them to attend an event.
Option 2) We have free training for organisers to cover at least roles for 3 and 4 in a single session (it is, to be fair, usually easier to find someone with first aid training) and the slalom committee takes on the role of CRB checking the organisers.

Point 6:
This is about simplifying the rules for lower division races. Does a div 4 short course event (or even a div 3) really need a full jury? Do we really need a jury member who does not belong to the club? Note that if we went with option 1 for points 3,4,5 then that support volunteer could also act as the jury.

Point 7:
A perennial problem and not one that the committee can help with. If I had the insurance and the specific support above, I'd be more likely to start twisting arms. (Oh, and I learnt something last time; if I know a big group is coming together I'd try and get them to commit to covering a judging position in advance in the hope that the team leader could just make it part of the day)
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Flipper
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by Flipper » Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:16 pm

I have been blatting on about this for a few years now, for the SE region at least. It's been clear enough to see the problem coming down the tracks. I think I called it a "Slow motion train crash". My comments are restricted to these regions, I don't feel qualified to comment on others. Take a look at the returns of the latest BC survey - the number of active paddlers in the SE and London is (unsurprisingly) higher than anywhere else..... so the paddlers are there. So why is slalom losing ground, inexoribly, year after year? Loddon and Yalding are just the latest. Look back over a long period and you can find a wealth of events that have fallen by the wayside, almost no new ones.

After struggling with establishing a new slalom group for a few years, trying to set up inter-club comps to liven things up, etc. I have formed a few views:
1) It's easy to get new kids enthused with the notion of doing slalom. I was shocked at how rapidly they embraced the notion of training three or more times a week.
2). The ranking system is a huge motivator in this, especially with Nick's brill website. Instant feedback and gratification! If it can be extended down into the 'overlap' areas of Div4 so much the better.
3) It's hard to get their parents on side anything like as fast as the kids. Once it was a sport for people old enough to drive, now it's one for kids who have to be backed by super-dedicated parents, willing to stand on cold river banks all weekend, after hours of driving each way. Most aren't called Franklin. They steer their kids to other sports which are acceptably accessible - one of my more promising paddlers is now a budding golf pro. my grandsons play tennis and rugby (both sports have developed junior versions to adapt to today's needs). The accessibility of slalom (training and racing) needs to recognise this. We need training venues within much less than an hour of where the most potential paddlers live. I would concentrate investment and support on a few venues around London - NE (LV), SW (Shepp), SE (Yalding?), NW (??) and encourage them to become 'centres of excellence'. Then we need a full season of 6+ race opportunities at entry-level (4-3) and at development (3-2) all within a couple of hours drive.
4) That means a big step up in the number of races which means getting more clubs active which takes us to the next hurdle: the sheer effort involved. We're trying to engage non-slalomists here. Don't expect them to give up a Thursday and Friday setting up, Saturday and Sunday managing the event then Monday follow-uo admin. No surprise that Windsor flinched at the prospect of repeating their Div4 event. They had an inspirational figurehead in Mallory to spur them on, and strong support from Shepp (thanks, Dee!), great turnout (see, the demand is there). But it's all got too much of a ball-ache to run events. Winchester ran Loddon. Once. And never again. Tandridge ran Yalding. Twice. No more. So we lost those events. What to do? Some ideas:-
Simplify the setup so clubs find it an easy sport to run AT ENTRY LEVEL at least. It's a simple test of boat handling skills against the clock on water the kids can handle. Frankly, we shouldn't worry if many of the 'gates' are bouys or sticks poked into a muddy bed of a lake - if the alternative is no race at all. Let's have a yardstick. It should be possible for 4 men to arrive in a car at 08:30 a.m. with everything they need in the boot or on a roofrack, have the couse ready for first race at 11:00 (one run only!), second race after lunch, packed up and away by 3:30 p.m.. Easy, of course, if the venue is permanently set up (Shepp, LV?, any 'centre of excellence'). At a pinch the team of 4 who set the course should be able to run it too - timekeeping and gate judging included. Like Dave Waine's walking judges.
Cut right back on the admin, juries etc. and make it clear that safety is the responsibility of attending clubs/coaches/parents not of the organisers.
Instant gratification. 2 single-run Div4 races could be run in conjunction with a double-run Div3, any D4 paddler that beats the time of any D3 paddler can be given the same points, and hey presto they have a 'National Ranking' (sounds impressive, eh!) and pop into Nick's website. Magic, they're hooked.

To repeat, these ideas are only to address the chronic probs we have her in the entry level divisions - none apply to Div2 or above.

Enough for now. I'm off for a bike ride. Much simpler.
Flipper

JimW
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by JimW » Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:51 pm

I couldn't think of anything, but maybe I just did.... or maybe it is simply coincidence.

Race organisers have asked us not to pester them about whether or not they received our entries, but both div 3/4 events that are running this weekend haven't posted a provisional start list (unless I just haven't looked in the right place for it yet) as of 5pm Tuesday.
I realise div 4 events are open to entries on the day so the start lists are more provisional than most, but could those of us that did enter in advance (div 3 or 4) get some acknowledgement of our entries?
I don't suppose either event this weekend is going to fill up completely, and you may consider my motives questionable (I'm trying for promotion before Pinkston because I think I'm too heavy to paddle it on one pump) and that I am in a minority of 1 who is prepared to drive for 4.5 hours to div 3/4 event, and even though I don't need accommodation as I have friends in the area, I would still be disappointed to drive all that way and not have an entry.

Other than that I haven't been racing long enough to have seen people getting put off by struggling for promotion to div 3, the only person in our relatively new club to have entered a div 4 was promoted the same day.
To me that is where the possible problem lies, depending on whether anyone has had the necessary conversation with competitor and parents beforehand and explained that whilst club membership will allow them to race at div 4, if they get promoted they will need to join SCA (or other), send off a bib deposit, and that entry fees are going to gradually increase as they progress. I think this is perhaps more an issue for clubs to manage than about div 3 and 4 events.

I think another thing that might be useful, especially for trying to bring in older teens and adults, is more publicity that you can enter any boat in the lower divisions - many will have started to focus on an area of paddling, often river running, creek boating or playboating and will have managed to get their own boat which will be their only boat for a few years until they get a decent part time job or start working, but I bet some of them would try slalom if they knew they didn't need to get a long pointy fragile boat first (and then once they are around slalom boats they will realise that they aren't very pointy or fragile). Some freestyle events have started adding BoaterX racing to the programme - usually racing head to head or 4 up like 4X bike racing - which seems to be getting quite popular, we are definitely seeing people enter only the BoaterX and not the freestyle competition at some events so ordinary boaters are inclined to race, many of them just don't realise it yet.

Some older paddlers will already be accomplished WW paddlers and might be put off by having to work up from flat water div 4 - well I already know that it is possible to gain direct entry in a higher division by sending supporting evidence because I did, but I started in a composite slalom boat. The getting started page seems to suggest that you don't need a boat that meets the rules until you get to Prem (although I would like to see anyone go fast enough in a creek boat to get promoted higher than div 3) - so presumably accomplished WW paddlers could enter as open at a div 2 & open event and have a go directly on water more likely to interest them, and perhaps even apply for ranking directly into div 2 in their ordinary river boat? If so perhaps we don't need to change much that is already possible, but simply make it more widely known?

JoS
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by JoS » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:47 pm

I see quite a few kids at some races get really frustrated because they don't get a chance to practice with all the big confident kids on the water doing the same three gates over and over again. This is especially a problem for little girls (bigger boys in some cases seem to just paddle across them as if they're not there) and kids who are the only paddler there from their club, so they can't all stick together in a bunch. I iam told kids with difficulties such as autism also find this particularly hard. Then they do badly in the runs because they haven't had a good try at the course first, and there's nothing like knowing you lost because of something that isn't fair to make you want to quit a sport.

It would help to make all 3/4 events implement official practice, so every paddler gets at least one practice without being obstructed. At the moment it's printed on the start lists but not always actually run with an official on start ticking them off on the list and others by the eddies making them keep going.

JoS
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by JoS » Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:25 pm

And "strongly encourage" many clubs in the Midlands of our mutual acquaintance *ahem* to teach their young paddlers some river etiquette for practice time like not sitting chatting in a throng of 10 boats in the eddy below an upstream gate while other people are also trying to practice, and not paddling halfway up the course and then breaking in one boat length in front of somebody who's doing a full run. Stone was a flipping scrum today.

Also also, increase the delay between paddlers, and add in the rules for the lower divisions to have reruns for the paddler who gets whistled as well as the one who does the catching-up. There were loads of us getting caught up today and it's ridiculous. I didn't even get a proper run in because I got caught up before the end both times even though I asked for extra time both times, and I'm not the only one this happened to.

One last thing: GIVE Wagon Lane a toilet and hot running water. PLEASE. No little child needs to start her winter practice sessions by trying to #### crouching behind a tree in between dog walkers. I will personally turn up and build it if somebody tells me what to hammer where.

CathCS
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by CathCS » Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:33 am

Alternatively perhaps the rankings in Div 4 could become official and promotion could be gained in the same way as for higher up the divisions? This would help those who aren't promoted straight away and maybe reduce the numbers of those who wait to enter their first race before being absolutely sure that they will get promotion, Stone at the weekend being a case in point - the boy who came first in div 4 on the Saturday came second in div 3 on the Sunday.
It would also be interesting to see what proportion of those that don't compete again are related to those that are still competing - parents may be willing to have a go if they can compete at the same event as their children but are unlikely to compete when they are in a different division to their children.

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