Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
WindsorCC
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Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:22 pm

Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by WindsorCC » Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:11 pm

Hi Nick, few thoughts from me as my boys start slalom, next generation and all that!

I think the requirement for comprehensive BC membership after you've done one Div 4 is a bit of a barrier (although realistically, it's when you get into Div 3 and need a bib). It's fine for those who then want to continue and compete regularly, but I've seen quite a few over the years who've been promoted and then faced with a big outlay for BC membership and a bib, don't continue. Not sure of a solution to that other than allowing day membership (as is the case in marathon up to a certain level I think) but that causes more work for organisers, or different levels of BC membership.

Otherwise I think entry fees at Div 3/4 are fair and not over-priced (not to say that's the case at higher divisions, just that we're talking about 3/4).

Judging can be patchy at 3/4 as often it's done by inexperienced parents, siblings etc, but usually it tends towards more lenient rather than too harsh, and the impact is low, so not an issue as far as I'm concerned.

Slalom generally seems to have a far lower age range than it used to 30 years ago when I was a junior. I remember back then juniors being in the minority, which is the opposite case now. I wonder if that's a barrier to adults new to slalom, turning up to a field almost exclusively under 14, in Div 3 as well as Div 4. Lots of time and effort is spent bringing in juniors, but perhaps we also need to be doing some work to bring in the 18-30 age group, who will then also be paying higher fees, which will help organisers.

There seem to be plenty of 3/4 races on the calendar now, certainly in the south. Last year with the boys we did plenty of races, all within an hour's drive so at that level travel isn't an issue.

At Windsor I'm certainly struggling to get people into slalom. There are a couple of guys in Div 3 who've started racing in the last couple of years and are keen, and we've had a group go to Cardington, but they are only really up for one race for a bit of fun. We're a strong club on the recreational side, but it's been difficult to get people to take it up more seriously. Any ideas welcomed!

Well, just a few ramblings from me to kick things off!

Paul.

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by JimW » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:26 pm

Encouraging adults seems to be the biggest challenge, but I have no ideas for solving it.

JoS
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by JoS » Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:21 am

As an adult I try (not always successfully) to be encouraging to other adults who are feeling glum that they just got beaten by 20 little kids, which I think is a big reason why some people give up. I had been thinking for a while maybe we should have some kind of network for low division adults so we can support each other, have a curry together on competition Saturday evenings, etc. It can be a little bit lonely when you go to a slalom and you're the only adult paddler that you know, and the families are all busy sorting out their own kids.

Mark H
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by Mark H » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:26 pm

Adults in paddling.
When the clocks go forward we are going to run some adult/ parent sessions
at HPPCC. This could be very interesting for the kids to watch. We thought while the kids are paddling
on a Saturday we can have a bash too now they can look out for each other.
Hopefully a few parents may race in the lower divisions, time permitting.
Stone here we come get some good rescue people sorted for your later races.
Happy paddling/ swimming
Mark

WindsorCC
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by WindsorCC » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:12 pm

I was thinking the other day that one of the challenges is the growth of playboating in the relatively safe environment of an artificial course.

Looking at the standard & quantity of playboaters at Lee Valley, Cardiff, HPP etc, there are clearly a lot of adults getting into the sport.

Given the choice between getting into a stable, indestructible boat and just playing around in a relatively safe environment, with generally everyone being roughly the same standard (and it not being particularly demoralising if there are a few good people playing in holes), or slalom where as an adult starting it takes a long time to develop the skills and balance necessary to feel comfortable, in a specialised boat, with limited access to water where you're not trying to avoid playboaters, and maintaining morale when you're competing against juniors who get really good, really quickly (no-one bring up TID :wink: )

After all of that, I'm really not sure what we can do about it. I know some adults who have come to slalom later on, they are happy to progress at their own pace (actually some are happy not progressing...) and don't expect (or sometimes want..) to get any higher than Div 2. Those are the people that are going to be a solid base of entries at div 3/4 and be doing a dozen races over a few years before they go up, rather than the juniors who will be up to Div 2 in five or six races over a single season.

Dee
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Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by Dee » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:20 pm

How about targetting university canoe clubs. In our day, pre-play-boating, university clubs were probably a mainstay of many lower division slaloms....

Currently most competitions are either during their holidays or in the middle of exams. If there were some suitably based at other times of the year it might work. (Perhaps run alongside polo competitions?)

I know that Cambridge went to the Orton Mere winter slaloms a couple of time and did enjoy themselves (who wouldn't enjoy the hospitality at Orton Mere), so it's not that they don't like slalom, but students are not always organised at checking dates and following through so they need a nudge.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JohnMac
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Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:43 pm

Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by JohnMac » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:20 am

Start now folks, if in doubt do something ;-) ... Which club could consider chasing the re-birth of Stratford on Avon slalom ? Easy reach location for many people. First needs permissions search mind you.

Nick Taylor
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Location: Bedford
Contact:

Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by Nick Taylor » Tue May 09, 2017 8:42 am

Hi Folks,
With a committee meeting coming up on 20-May I'm once again collecting opinions of how we can make life easier or better for organisers, competitors &(& parents) in Div 3 & 4.
Please join in & tell me anything that's on your mind

chriswilde
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 8:41 pm

Re: Lower Divisions (3&4) - How Could Things be Improved?

Post by chriswilde » Tue May 09, 2017 9:54 pm

Hi Nick,

Before I go on I will say that I have not read through many of the previous posts on this thread, these are my thoughts which I have been pondering over the last couple of years since I have been involved with the sport again. Sorry this goes on a bit and may not be 100% accurate.

To give it some context I am an ex-div 1 slalom paddler (20 years ago!), parent of junior paddlers who are now both in div 3 and also as an organiser of a div 4 and open slalom. I love canoe slalom, I think it is great for developing paddlers skills in a relatively safe environment (safer than being out on a remote river). I believe that training, competition, success and failure teaches paddlers some good life lessons. However I do think there are some challenges which the sport needs to try to address.

It's currently too easy to get promoted which robs the lower divisions of good quality competition.

On occasions the quality of the competition is poor in the lower divisions due poor course setting, poor judging, poor attendances.

I think that division 4 slaloms held on flat water are a good introduction to the sport, however there is one major problem with this type of race and that is that it is too easy to get promoted into division 3. An example is at Llandyssul slalom my daughter (Jasmine) who is 8 got promoted. It was a double div 4, over the 2 days 11 women competed, 4 of whom earned promotion, including Jasmine. The following week my daughter would have come 5th out of 6 paddlers in the division 4 race and so been far off promotion. I now have the problem that I need to buy her BC membership, a bib and need to pick races where the water is as calm as possible as she is not ready to paddle more challenging water. If I wasn't an experienced paddler and enthusiastic I wouldn't bother! This has happened with other paddlers in our club who have been promoted but parents are unwilling to pay the cost of BC membership and apply for a bib just to compete at a handful of local slalom competitions, therefore their promotion has had the adverse effect of preventing them from competing.

At the Frome Market Yard Slalom I organised we ran an open race alongside the division 4 which was keenly contested and had more entries than the division 4 classes added together.

Looking through the results for men's kayak so far this year there are good entries at division 2, 1 and premier races, at division 3 the entries are generally around the 25 to 30 mark for men's K1 and in division 4 with the exception of Outibridge the entries are in the single figures. A similar pattern occurs in the other classes.

My proposal would be that instead of division 4 there is just an open division which anyone can enter with no automatic promotions. This would allow those who just want some sport (who are of whichever level including beginners in any class) to compete at these races. They could be run on their own (allowing for 12 gate flat water slaloms), alongside division 3's or any other division. A paddler could use these to benchmark themselves against the ranking divisions and use it to apply for ranking status or promotion based on their result (I would say that if a paddler's result is good enough for a top 60% finish in the division they are applying for ranking in on three occasions then this would be a guideline). This division could replace paddle ups as an open race could be run alongside those races where there will be water time/light to support it and likewise it could be used to apply for promotion (the paddler would have to provide the evidence to save on admin) It would allow C2 crews to compete without being promoted into division 3 then having to apply for bibs etc... most don't. It would also allow those returning to the sport to use it as a way of gaining ranking status in the correct division.

I am unclear about the whole insurance side of things, BC membership as a condition, etc. I am sure there is a way of making it work without making it prohibitively expensive to those who want to race a few times each year? Perhaps a member's rate and a non-member's rate which is £3 or £4 more for the day/weekend?

Improving the quality of the competition: At the lower divisions there should be as much provision for water time for all competitors as possible, full runs should always be encouraged, coaching available if at all possible, and organisers should make the course available for practice as much as possible. Courses should also be set with paddlers in mind so they are nice to paddle not super tight just for the sake of it.

Improving judging; the guide on this website is good, but it should be made available in a paper version which is available at events for all judges (and anyone who is interested) to refer to, it would be nice if some judging workshops/exams could be held at a few lower division events each year - maybe they are but I haven't seen any and its not advertised in the yearbook.

Like I say these are my thoughts, I would be interested to hear what other's think of them, especially concerning the open division.

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