Is C2 Viable as a ranking class?

[Canadian Paddler]

Do not hold your breath. Motions will not be up until after Saturdays British committee meeting to confirm committee motions and the order of motions
.
BTW there are a lot this year and some will be hotly debated. So might be an interesting meeting with little time / energy for general discussion at the end.

Still time to nominate new coordinators.

[Nick Penfold]

A suggestion:
Prem/1 continues to be a full ranking class and division, with access on application to the Ranking Status Officer who would review recent "open" C2 results and/or the individuals' rankings in other classes. Points and rankings are calculated as they are today.
Div 2/3 and 4 operate as one open division, with casual pairing and entry. Paddlers treat it as casually or as seriously as they choose. At the end of the year a "participants" list like today's Div 4 list is published. Events offer prizes but there are no bibs, no points, no rankings and no promotions.

[Jasper]

Why do we treat Div. 2 / 3 C2 class any different to any other classes?

If event organiser's allow people to paddle who are not already ranked (they know this as the pair would not have a Bib or bib No. allocated to them on entry), then those C2 crew's should not gain ANY ranking points or be eligible for the prizes on offer.

Only those C2 pairs who have adhered to the published rules of UK Canoe Slalom (i.e. Have applied for their Bib) should be considered as an event entrant and then appear in the published ranking lists.

Don't introduce a system that will punish the people doing it correctly at the moment so that those who are not doing so can continue as they are currently doing.

Just my view.
Jasper

[Nick Penfold]

For one thing we won't encourage people to try C2 if we get officious about it. For another, only a handful of Div 2/3 pairs are serious about it. This year:
2 pairs each did 10 races
1 pair did 9 races
2 pairs did 7 races
2 pairs did 6 races
6 pairs did 5 races
That's 13 pairs who could be considered serious about C2 racing.
All the rest who raced ("legal" or not) did 4 races or less, the vast majority only 1 or 2.

[WindsorCC]

I quite like that idea Nick... It means those who want to take it seriously can do so, get some good results in 'open' events and then be considered on merit for Prem/1, those who are more casual can just pair-up as and when they want to without the hassle of applying for a bib (or potentially multiple bibs).

I guess there should be some published criteria for those applying to P/1 to keep it as objective as possible, perhaps based on percentages against K1M over several races, but that would probably only need to be worked-out for a couple of boats each year, so not a problem if it's a bit manual.

I'd quite like to do some C2 with my other boys, and one of them has been talking to a lad from another club about doing C2 occasionally, this would certainly encourage that, and perhaps some of those will then take it more seriously and start to build it up again.

The only downside I can see is a crew who are good not being promoted and 'pot hunting' at Div 2/3 races, but I doubt there would be many who wouldn't then want to apply to go up.

[Canadian Paddler]

Too late to do anything this year. So hold that thought / bring it to teh open discussion at the end of teh ACM, and then a motion to next years' meeting

[Dee]

Sounds like an idea worth consideration but playing devil's advocate.....
The downside could be a couple of individually ranked prem paddlers pairing up on a casual basis racing against a couple of div 4 paddlers, which could be a tad unfair.

[WindsorCC]

Hi Dee, I doubt you'd get Prem paddlers forming casual crews and wanting to race outside Prem/1 events (case in point Mal and Kim who just went straight into P/1). Maybe you'd have that once in a blue moon for a bit of fun, but I can't see them racing regularly in 2/3.

As I mentioned, my concern would more be a good crew regularly winning at 2/3 races, but who don't elect to go up. One of the aims of the ranking system is to make sure people are racing at an appropriate level and moving up when they reach the top of their division.

But, I don't see a solution to that other than having bibs, points, ranking etc... Maybe we need to propose for 2018 and see how it goes, if it becomes a problem we re-think..

Paul.

[Steve Agar]

I apologise for my late entry into the debate, but I've had registration (or finger) trouble. I also realise that it may now be too late to do anything about this for next season - mea culpa.

The problems of inquorate C2 events and the future of the class has been troubling me for a while. As my experience has been Prem/1 for the last few years I can't speak for div 2/3, but I do know that there is nothing more disheartening than paddling an inquorate event, especially if you've travelled a long way to get there. One reason I feel for the lack of numbers is the gulf between the top crews and the rest, with a group of aspiring and potentially talented crews somewhere in the middle from time to time. I'm a knackered old veteran who doesn't want to go back to paddle at div 2 and 3 events, but always enjoy the challenge of a good competition, and am happy to be in the bottom 2 or 3 of 10 because I at least have the fun (anyone remember that word) of pitting myself and generally willing partner against not only a testing course and water, but also people of a like mind. Historically, C2 crews do it because when it works properly it's the best feeling in slalom, and when it doesn't (which isn't infrequent) there are others who know the feeling and will have a laugh with you about it. Sometimes success for the occasional, non-dedicated, crew can mean getting the hardest gate on the course perfectly whilst completely cocking up the rest. It is often very difficult for our teenage crews to realise their full potential when they suddenly have to move away for work, college or university from their paddling partner. Because the sport now takes itself so seriously, they don't see a future in C2, especially given the crazy Olympic policies. Can anyone honestly say they haven't been more impressed by a C2 crew storming down a course, getting it all together (and occasionally losing it) than any number of kayaks or C1s? As for C2 teams - a joy to be behold when it's on song, and hilarious when it goes wrong!

For the last couple of seasons our best crews (and kayaks too) don't paddle many domestic events, so victory for the next tier of crews is a bit hollow and unsatisfying. More importantly, there may be 4 or 5 boats that are dedicated, train together regularly and remain motivated that I would class as "good", so for the rest of us paddling an expensive 4 minutes (maybe 8 in my case) over the weekend for a Premier event is a complete waste of effort and willpower. Likewise, why should the top crews bother paddling at div 1 events, and the self-fulfilling downward spiral of inquorate events reduces the motivation for anyone else to be bothered, given the paltry number of points likely to be won using the current multipliers for inquorate classes. Many courses are relatively far more testing for C2s than kayaks or C1s as skill levels in those boats steadily increase, and course designers look to test the best with tighter and tighter staggers (or gates hidden behind trees) and the like. If all or most C2s have to spin the odd gate that kayaks don't, then the competition is fair, but for inquorate events (and for all but the best 2 or 3 crews), the much longer running times that result make the current multipliers pointless (literally in some cases). Is it any wonder that so many of us now feel that the rewards don't justify the efforts?

I had thought that splitting Premier and div 1 might help restore some popularity by giving the div 1 paddlers back a sense of competition amongst (more) equals, and leaving Premier to those who really want to challenge for top spot. I haven't yet thought through the one division idea. The absolute priority has to be to encourage more people to think that "C2 looks fun, I'd like to have a go at that, and I can see a sensible and achievable way of both progressing, and maintaining the fun if I ain't that good or I lose the means of paddling regularly with my partner". I realise that I'm totally out of step with reality when it comes to thinking that slalom can recognise that there is more to sport than Olympic medals, but I would be desperately sad to lose the best class we have.

[WindsorCC]

Steve, just wanted to say, that was a fantastic piece of writing...

[Steve Agar]

If only I could paddle as well......

[JamesG]

Alongside with C1, C2 is one of the most exciting classes to watch.

[harratts]

Cardington - Day 1 - not enough C2 entrants to make the class corate.

Cardington - Day 2 - sufficient C2 entrants to make the class corate.

Be very interesting to see how the ranking points secured for those C2 crews taking part on both days compare under these circumstances.

Steve

[JimW]

Pinkston - Day 1 - not enough C2s to appear on the start list
Pinkston - Day 2 - not enough C2s to appear on the start list

Come on you C2 crews, I know you exist, send entries!
(I am expecting 1 at least)

[JimW]

Todays Scottish Schools Championship (and div 3/4) saw 23 C2s racing.
Mostly unranking scratch pairings but they all seemed to be having great fun - and after the racing one of the boats took a non paddler out for a spin too.

Doesn't look like there is a shortage of kids who like paddling C2, it's simply that it is not a part of olympic aspirations anymore.
What if there was some other kind of C2 title to race for, would it inspire some crews to actually train and race more regularly?