Boat Weight Rules

[James Hastings]

A couple of questions:

1) Does the ICF have any empirical evidence to demonstrate that an 8kg boat will give a consistently better set of results than a 9kg one? Just a reminder that to test this the same paddler would need to paddle the same boat design at 8kg and 9kg over the same course a considerable number of times to give statistically robust results. I suspect not.

2) Do all ICF rules have to be applied to domestic competitions? If not, why are we applying it as it will be irrelevant to the domestic environment as the small number of elite paddlers who fly to international competitions with split boats will be able to use non-split boats domestically.

[WindsorCC]

I'm somewhat confused about what the issue is with the weight increase, other than for those who might have just brought a 8kg boat?

All that's required is sticking in some weight, and given that a new 8kg boat will be 9kg with a couple of years of proper use, you can then just take it out again?

I could understand if there were a reduction in weight that people would complain, as then those who want every marginal gain would be 'forced' into buying a new, lighter boat, and those who couldn't afford it would be at a disadvantage.

In this case, it actually means those of us with older, heavier boats are better off, those who are buying new boats can look at a cheaper construction, and those who need to fly can get a split boat and not be at a disadvantage.

[JimW]

but I'm sure in the mid 90's a friend who was racing at the time explained that there was a minimum weight and a maximum addition to make up the minimum weight so in effect there was a lower weight that boats were built to so competitors could add the weight under their seat to reduce the turning inertia. I assumed that this had gone and extra weight was no longer allowed, if so why bring it back?

I don't remember anything about a maximum addition, but extra weight has (as far as I know) always been allowed to be added to make the boat up to weight. Top spec boats can be made easily 1 kg under weight and still be stiff and strong, if not great at handling impacts.

When the weight rules were brought in it was to stop people building ridiculously light boats with minimum amount of material and resin. Some of these boats were floppy by the end of their first race, I'm sure that the performance hit from the floppyness was greater than any gains to be had by paddling a light boat.

I may have misunderstood my friends explanation, maybe he just got his boats as light as practically possible and added weight - I never weighed the one he gave me, but the deck was certainly floppy!

[DavidDickson]

On the plus side boats just got a lot cheaper - there is no need to go for top spec, the next or next but one will get you a boat the right weight, until manufacturers realise and add weight to all their specs to maintain the market positioning.

I'm somewhat confused about what the issue is with the weight increase, other than for those who might have just brought a 8kg boat?

All that's required is sticking in some weight, and given that a new 8kg boat will be 9kg with a couple of years of proper use, you can then just take it out again?

I could understand if there were a reduction in weight that people would complain, as then those who want every marginal gain would be 'forced' into buying a new, lighter boat, and those who couldn't afford it would be at a disadvantage.

In this case, it actually means those of us with older, heavier boats are better off, those who are buying new boats can look at a cheaper construction, and those who need to fly can get a split boat and not be at a disadvantage.

I don't think my point is being understood - cheaper construction boats are made with either heavier/more material or a greater amount of resin in the composite - this means that the weight is distributed throughout the entire boat. This makes the boat heavier, less responsive and more effort is required to turn it.

If I were racing and wanted to give myself every gain possible I would still ask my boat manufacturer to make my boat to 8kg or less. I would then stick enough weight under the seat to bring the boat up to 9kg. Because the weight is right underneath my backside (centre/axis of rotation) the additional weight is just like me being 1kg heavier. e.g 75kg + 1kg = 76kg a 0.4% rise in my body weight.

My boat will still be as responsive as before and much easier to turn than a manufactured 9kg boat.

My whole point is that this rule change does not provide a solution to balance the performance of a 9kg split boat versus a 8kg non split boat with 1kg added under the seat and is therefore pointless.

The easiest gain anyone will make next season over a competitor paddling a manufactured 9kg boat is to continue using an 8kg boat and weight it under the seat.

If I were a boat manufacturer and wanted to gain advantage over my competitors then I would offer a boat spec. that just adds the additional 1kg in a patch about the same size as the seat under the seat. This may also help to stop seats wearing through the bottom of the boat so quickly.

[DavidDickson]

A couple of questions:

1) Does the ICF have any empirical evidence to demonstrate that an 8kg boat will give a consistently better set of results than a 9kg one? Just a reminder that to test this the same paddler would need to paddle the same boat design at 8kg and 9kg over the same course a considerable number of times to give statistically robust results. I suspect not.

I don't know if the ICF have this evidence - I also suspect not - but considering Joe Clarke was only 0.17 seconds ahead of 2nd place at the Rio Olympics and there was only 0.9 seconds between 1st place Joe and 5th place Grigar in K1 men- canoe slalom has surely become a sport where marginal gains may make a significant difference.

It is unbelievable the extremes that F1 race car manufacturers go to to save weight in their cars. I was recently looking at a small aluminium part that used to be cnc machined. It was only 3mm thick but is now being 3D metal printed so the inside can be hollowed out to save weight......

[James Hastings]

Actually Windsor CC, it is a bit of a pain in the proverbial. Those of us who have bought boats in recent years have done so during the more relaxed weight regime, thus I suspect that many have little or no idea what their boat weighs. I certainly have no idea what mine does and have no facilities at home to accurately take a weight. Thus the first I'm going to know if my boat is underweight or not is if it gets weighed at a div 2. Given that the 9kg rule dates back to the time of 4 metre boats and most kayaks are now considerably shorter than that, there is significant likelihood that most will be under 9kg even after a couple of years usage. We are all then going to have to trawl around the country again with bit chunks of lead - not easy to obtain - just to satisfy an ICF rule put in place for a very small number of elite paddlers.

Thus I will re-iterate my question to the Committee. If it is not obligatory to apply this rule to domestic competition, why do so?

[Mike Mitchell]

So having been around Slalom for a long time I have seen a lot of Rules changed.Some for the better and some just stupid.

In the 70s there was no lower limit on Boat weight and the lightest boat I paddled by the early 80s was 13ld. in Glass and then 14ld in Kevlar. Thats around 6KG.
Yes light boats are faster, but they rap up easy and we always had a race boat and a training boat.

So the 9kg Rule came in and we all added weights under the Seat until a new boat was needed.

But now we have shorter boats made from far better materials and the 8kg boat has been raced, tried and tested with most top paddlers having one around that weight.

I recon only a handful of paddlers are going to get split boats to travel around the world as they are going to be slower.
As a boat with light ends and the weight just behind or under the seat is still going to be the fastest. Also with a light Deck.

So are organisers going to be sensible and maybe just put a warning sticker on boats that are underweight or are we going to panic everyone into weighting there boats and disqualify those that don't.

Can Organised please state on the Start list if they intend enforcing this ridicules rule and if so provide a set of calibrated scales at the Start and Finish.

I as a Builder will in return bring and donate a Roll of Lead, cutters and tube of Sticks like ####, to make up weights.

To the Committee. If it is not obligatory to apply this rule to domestic competition, why do so?

[Canadian Paddler]

Several off the cuff reactions and one serious one.

Serious first. The 2017 rule book will state boat minimum weights and dimensions do not apply at div 2 and below. So the chance of being disqualified at your first div 2 is low. If the scales are there it would be sensible to check your weight before promotion
No change in weight limit application from this year.

Then..
Split boats are joined near the seat. I understand you can decide where. The weight is in the middle, just where you will put the lead. So they will be 8kg boats with weights on or around the seat with light ends. The weight is in the joint.

Apocryphal I have heard of a paddler undertaking a test in a boat weighing about 7kg (no weight at all). Then again with a 2kg weight, then back to 7kg. The difference could be measured with a hand held stopwatch as over 1 second. Considerable if you consider Olympics.

International paddlers and those that want to travel with boats are already buying split boats so they can get them on a plane. Not just one or two or just non-European teams. Uk paddlers with no hope of team.

If the rule was not introduced all those wanting to fly with a boat or who wanted to paddle international events at any level would need either need two boats or to paddle under a disadvantage in this country. Oh by the way senior u23 and junior selection are all run to icf rules. So everyone with any dream of team would need a heavier boat at least for that race.

As I said mainly personal wittering and opinions. Nothing official.

[Alison]

Remembering the days where all boats were weighed at most div 1 Slaloms I can't see the problem. Initially you could get your boat weighed before/after practice you then had time to add some weight if needed. You securely fixed the appropriate weight in had it checked at practice next venue and were then happy your boat was the correct weight for all future races. I've still got my blue steam train mark on mine to show it was weighed and fine at Town Falls.

As long as we can have access to scales during practice times for those of us who don't train at venues with scales it's not that hard for the competitor more difficult the organiser who needs a boat weighing volunteer.

[JimW]

On the plus side boats just got a lot cheaper - there is no need to go for top spec, the next or next but one will get you a boat the right weight, until manufacturers realise and add weight to all their specs to maintain the market positioning.

I don't think my point is being understood

I completely understand your point, that parting comment was meant to be tongue in cheek.

Considering where the split is going to be, an 8kg boat with 1kg weight and a 9kg split boat are going to be very close on turning inertia, the only losers would be anyone choosing a cheaper 9kg construction instead of adding weight, so in fact the only people that would be disadvantaged is those buying new boats who don't realise this and go for 9kg evenly distributed. All based on undamaged boats of course, all those careful calculations and advantages fly out of the window as soon as you patch the tail (seems to be the most common repair).

[DavidDickson]

International paddlers and those that want to travel with boats are already buying split boats so they can get them on a plane. Not just one or two or just non-European teams. Uk paddlers with no hope of team.

If the rule was not introduced all those wanting to fly with a boat or who wanted to paddle international events at any level would need either need two boats or to paddle under a disadvantage in this country. Oh by the way senior u23 and junior selection are all run to icf rules. So everyone with any dream of team would need a heavier boat at least for that race.

I have checked Ryanair - Easyjet - Monarch etc and they all still carry full length boats - British airways have limited to 190cm but most of us probably can't afford to fly with them anyway.

I think at the moment this will only really effect people travelling on long haul flights with some airlines.

For the majority of paddlers flying to Europe and those competing internationally in Europe split boats will not be needed.

It just seems crazy to be introducing this rule when so few will benefit from it.

Domestically in the UK - it would make more sense not to introduce this rule. Its just more hassle for paddlers and race organisers.

It should definitely not be applied to young developing paddlers - at a minimum it should only be introduced for over 14s. These kids (or their parents) will now have to lug around and paddle heavier boats which is unnecessary.

[DavidDickson]

Split boats are joined near the seat. I understand you can decide where. The weight is in the middle, just where you will put the lead. So they will be 8kg boats with weights on or around the seat with light ends. The weight is in the joint.
.

If we are accepting that a split boat joined near the seat will behave the same as an 8kg non split boat with 1kg weight added near the seat - would it not make more sense to just apply this rule for ICF internationals - I really can't see why anyone racing domestically in the UK or Europe need be changing their boats. Surely this rule will only be effecting those travelling to/from the likes of Oz or NZ to race.

My son raced in the ECA junior cup races in Augsburg, Krakow and Bratislava last year and his boat wasn't weighed at any of these races.

Again - If we are accepting that a split boat joined near the seat will behave the same as an 8kg non split boat with 1kg weight added near the seat - ie. the increase in weight will not effect the boats performance but will be like adding 1kg to the paddlers weight - would it not be easier for the minority of athletes who will paddle a split boat to either get down the gym and loose 1kg or do some more pull ups to re-balance their strength to weight ratio ?

Instead the entire canoe slalom world is expected to add 1kg to their boats - this is daft.

[paddlerparent]

I'd be surprised if all of the objections on this site change the rule - so it doesn't matter if i agree or not - i'll put my efforts into getting my son's boats the right weight for the season rather than moaning about it

[BaldockBabe]

I'd be surprised if all of the objections on this site change the rule - so it doesn't matter if i agree or not - i'll put my efforts into getting my son's boats the right weight for the season rather than moaning about it

I like that!

Perhaps the objections should have been raised at the ACM when the motion was put forward

[DavidDickson]

Apologies - I was unable to make the ACM but I believe objections were raised on this matter ?

I have accepted the rule change and have already added weight to our boats. However, I don't agree with this rule change and therefore was having a 'rant' which I thought was the purpose of this part of the forum.

To me the most important role of domestic racing in the UK is to develop young paddlers and make the sport more fun and accessible. Forcing people to paddle heavier boats and giving race organisers the job of policing this does not achieve this goal.

If this rule change was for the benefit of the majority within the sport then fine - but it is not- it is for a very small minority at the elite end of the sport.