New Points - Can I paddle down and get more points?

[IDL]

Just completed my first slalom of the season, a Div 2 & 3. I'm in Div2 and earned 115 points for my efforts. If I'd got the same result in Div3 I'd have got almost twice as many points.

I thought the new points system was supposed to create some kind of parity between the divisions?

Now I know that it's early days and other slaloms will produce a different spread of results, (this was a difficult course for Div 3's), but at first impressions it seems that we will need some adjustment for next season.

Is someone goinig to be tracking the relationship between points where there are two divisions racing on the same course?

[JimW]

But if you were still ranked in div 3, would you have got such a good time?
Don't forget that under the previous system had you been in div 3 you would have earned 4 times the points you did in div 2 for that time.... but they would have had exactly the same influence on your promotion count from 3-2 as in the new system.

The idea is not to create parity between divisions but to make it easier for the best paddlers in a division to earn promotion, so if a div 3 paddler would have earned more points with their time in the div 2 ranking, he/she gets the div 2 points instead of the div 3 points BUT is not actually inserted into the div 2 list because that would mess up the other div 2 results.

It makes no sense to give the higher division paddlers the points from the lower division if they would have been higher, you were trying to beat the div 2's not the div 3's. If anything the fact that there are some div 3's with faster times than you should be an early warning that you are not secure in div 2 yet! I still have to find out how secure I look in div 2 this year, I have just completed my first 2 races but they were Prem's so I was racing as an official, earned no ranking points, and I don't think I had any other div 2 officials to compare my times with...

I haven't gone through every line of the results, but it doesn't look as though any of the div 3 K1M at Symonds Yat on Saturday have times fast enough to have gained more points in the div 2 list so maybe not the best race to check if the system works. I'm sure it has been tested thoroughly on old results though.

[IDL]

But if you were still ranked in div 3, would you have got such a good time?
Don't forget that under the previous system had you been in div 3 you would have earned 4 times the points you did in div 2 for that time.... but they would have had exactly the same influence on your promotion count from 3-2 as in the new system.

The idea is not to create parity between divisions but to make it easier for the best paddlers in a division to earn promotion, so if a div 3 paddler would have earned more points with their time in the div 2 ranking, he/she gets the div 2 points instead of the div 3 points BUT is not actually inserted into the div 2 list because that would mess up the other div 2 results.

It makes no sense to give the higher division paddlers the points from the lower division if they would have been higher, you were trying to beat the div 2's not the div 3's. If anything the fact that there are some div 3's with faster times than you should be an early warning that you are not secure in div 2 yet! I still have to find out how secure I look in div 2 this year, I have just completed my first 2 races but they were Prem's so I was racing as an official, earned no ranking points, and I don't think I had any other div 2 officials to compare my times with...

I haven't gone through every line of the results, but it doesn't look as though any of the div 3 K1M at Symonds Yat on Saturday have times fast enough to have gained more points in the div 2 list so maybe not the best race to check if the system works. I'm sure it has been tested thoroughly on old results though.

Thanks Jim. I wasn't seriously suggesting I paddle down, and I do understand about the paddle ups being seperated so as not distort the host div points.

What you say about the Div3's potentially getting better points when paddling up is much the same as the point I was trying to make. At Symonds Yat on Saturday for example, the K1M Div 3's would have been generally a fair bit worse off if they had been earning Div 2 points. Therfore (IF this race is representative) the relationship between Div2 and Div 3 points may need to be adjusted. Time will tell.

[Canadian Paddler]

Technical point
Page 52 b1.2 4th bullet
"There is no paddle up option for Division 3 at a a division 2/3 competition. A Division 3 paddler beating paddlers in Division 2 will be awarded only the points earned against other division 3 paddlers. . ."

So, sorry Jim but your first post was wrong.

As to the purpose of paddle up I believe the introduction was to give more experience of bigger water not to even up across the divisions. But I did not propose it so wait for the proponents to reply.

[JimW]

Sorry, that must have been a defeated motion I was thinking of then..... there were so many of them!
Or I was getting confused with the previous rule where at a mixed division event paddlers in the lower division were automatically given PU if they beat 40% of the higher division, on the same course?

Either way it makes no difference to IDL's point about potentially earning more points in division 3 - if we didn't have portable points, both div 2 and div 3 would have been independently scored out of 1000 so a div 3 competitor with the same time as a div 2 would have scored (in the example given) 4 times as many points, but those points were only of any use towards ranking in div 3 and promotion from div 3 to div 2 at which point the count was zeroed.

Even now points earned in div 3 races only count for div 3 ranking and promotion to div 2, they are not carried over to div 2 on promotion, only paddle up points are carried over, i.e. points that were earned by paddling in div 2 races, whilst still a div 3 paddler, and because those are div 2 points, they don't carry over to div 1 if the paddler manages to get promoted twice in the year, only points earned in div 1 whilst paddling up from div 2 would be carried through the second promotion. So it really doesn't matter how many points your division earns for a given time compared to any other division, the points are only there to rank competitors within a division, not across divisions.

No doubt this sort of thing will come up a lot this season as we get used to portable points, I think the key concept to remember is this:
- Only paddle-up points are portable

Jim

[Dee]

As to the purpose of paddle up I believe the introduction was to give more experience of bigger water not to even up across the divisions. But I did not propose it so wait for the proponents to reply.

I get the impression that there was no agreed understanding of why pu points were introduced.

If it's just about giving paddlers experience on bigger water then why stop div 1/2 events from being run?

I think some may see it as a precursor to anyone being able to enter any competition and to doing away with divisions altogether, others as a way around the issue we had last year of div 1s filling up as paddle up made prem races an alternative option. For those families with two paddlers in different divisions it means that they can both compete......

Whatever the proponents had in mind the actual reasons for its introduction will probably never be known!

[JimW]

Just to keep the history straight: whatever the intro to this motion says, paddle up was not introduced to create points/promotion opportunities: it was to give paddlers earlier access to, and experience of, bigger water. I know because I wrote the original paddle up proposal.

There you go, even though Nick put us straight in another thread last year (the thread about the motion to limit PU), I still got it wrong again - PU was originally for early access to bigger water, not accelerated promotion, although that is something that has come with it.

[James Hastings]

And as Dee has already said, this is what multi-divisional races allowed paddlers from lower divisions to do, get experience on harder water. Thus why move from this relatively simple system to the over-complicated one that is portable points?

[djberriman]

The problem with mixed division races was that they had to be set so that the lower division paddlers could achieve them and it was often viewed the courses were not challenging enough for the host division. Certainly div 1/2 races were often viewed as easier than straight Div 1 races and it was often taken that the Saturday course would be easier than the Sunday.

The rule to award paddle ups at mixed division races has been revoked as it was not part of the original intention of the rule, eg to allow paddlers to test and prove themselves on harder water.

Paddle down points would be worthless, even if you won the lower division event it would only be worth a middle place finish in your division, so it may help you get a slightly better ranking but that would be about it. It would not help you get promoted.

The new system isn't complicated, all the 'complication' is handled by the results system (Simply Slalom) and the ranking database. This year it is slightly harder to achieve worthwhile points (you must finish half way or above to make it worthwhile). The ranking system tells you what you need to achieve and shows all your points including any paddle up points.

Paddle up does offer paddlers who perhaps have limited resources or limited access to events the possibility to race more often. As they can now race at events to which they previously had no access, yes the could judge but it gave them nothing except a warm glow but the investment of their funds, entry fees are only part of the cost of attending.

It helps events with costs as it means extra paying paddlers on the water.

It does allow a very limited few to accelerate their promotion and progress through the divisions but is that a bad thing if they are investing a lot of time and money to acheive their aims?

It perhaps doesn't suit everyone and every event. The changes may not work and can be changed. That's what the ACM is for.