Online Entries - The Future - Have your Say?

[Dee]

..... Please can we cross your palm with silver

[Dee]

On other matters - Promotees.

All being well, the plan is that next year bib numbers will be allocated by Duncan's excellent ranking system as soon as results are uploaded (usually within a couple of days of the competition). Paddlers will still need to apply for their new bibs promptly as they will need them to race, but they will not need to wait for the bib application to be processed before entering races in their new division.

This will hopefully resolve the issues that a few div 2 to div 1 and div 1 to Prem promotees had this year.

(Note that div 4s will still need their bib applications to be processed before they can enter online, but as div 3 events rarely fill up a long way in advance (and there is no issue with priority periods) this should hopefully be much less of an issue)

[Patrick O'Hara]

I'm a strong supporter of adding Div 4 to the online entry system and think it is more important than MCDs. I'm really hoping we can get rid of MCDs, they just add complexity. With under 2 weeks to go before our second 2017 Cardington slalom I am again seeing around 70% of entries that are entitle to MCDs not having applied it, this is similar to our event in June. I already have 14 Div 4 entries, many of which arrived with entries for other divisions. It looks likely that the event will be full before the day and so all Div 4 entries will have to be submitted in advance.

Patrick

[Dee]

I'm a strong supporter of adding Div 4 to the online entry system and think it is more important than MCDs. I'm really hoping we can get rid of MCDs, they just add complexity. With under 2 weeks to go before our second 2017 Cardington slalom I am again seeing around 70% of entries that are entitle to MCDs not having applied it, this is similar to our event in June. I already have 14 Div 4 entries, many of which arrived with entries for other divisions. It looks likely that the event will be full before the day and so all Div 4 entries will have to be submitted in advance.

Patrick

Have you (or your club) put forward an ACM motion to abolish MCD. If no one puts a motion forward then it will not go away!

I understand what you are saying about div 4s, but opening up online entries to 2/3s does not stop div 4s from entering by post. I might find time to look at it during the year (it could be added to competitions part way through the year) but not in time for start of the season. If there were more hours in day, days in weekend etc .....

[Patrick O'Hara]

We haven't put forward any ACM motions yet, need to get Cardington and Interclubs out of the way before that can be thought about. I really do understand about the number of hours it takes to do these developments and think what you have managed to fit in so far is very impressive.

Patrick

[Dee]

Could someone let me have the names of the pan-celtic team managers please?

[CeeBee]

Elaine Forbes for Scotland.

[Dee]

Those requesting online entry for div 4s......

Do most of your div 4s have bc numbers?
Do they provide proof of membership?
What do you do about those that think they have membership through their club?
Do you require non-members to pay for day membership?
Would you expect the system to take for day membership or can you manage this on the day as it means more form filling and they may have joined in the meantime?

Still no promises but I am mulling it over!

[Dee]

Will you still get paddlers to complete the reverse of the cards (we only provide printing options for the front) and get them to sign?
Can we just collect the very basics for entry/start list (name, club, age cat, class) and you do the bc numbers etc on the day?

[CeeBee]

Do most of your div 4s have bc numbers?

Some do and some don't


Do they provide proof of membership?

They show their SCA card or tell us the membership number


What do you do about those that think they have membership through their club?

Doesn't apply in Scotland but can either believe them or take day membership

Do you require non-members to pay for day membership? yes, they fill in a form which we return to the SCA office (they can then use this to offset membership when they join the SCA)

Would you expect the system to take for day membership or can you manage this on the day as it means more form filling and they may have joined in the meantime?

I wouldn't expect the system to charge for day membership , I would hope that there was a box you filled in on line to say whether you had membership and what the membership number was if applicable.

Will you still get paddlers to complete the reverse of the cards (we only provide printing options for the front) and get them to sign?

yes, we could still get them to sign unless this can be an option on the on oline entry system as a tick box. We don't need most of the information on the reverse of the card if it is captured elsewhere as we don't send the cards anywhere except for Div 4 promotees. suspect we could move to sending Div 4 promote information by e-mail instead with the promote details e.g. name, yob, club, BC number, e-mail address etc. (depends what info the Div 3 bib officer/ranking list compiler needs)

Can we just collect the very basics for entry/start list (name, club, age cat, class) and you do the bc numbers etc on the day?

This would be a good start. BC numbers can be done on the day. E-mail address would also be useful so can send this to the bib officer/ranking compilers.

[Patrick O'Hara]

Sorry for the delay in responding to this, the last few weeks have been a bit hectic with our event at Cardington followed by Interclubs. Here are my answers:

Do most of your div 4s have bc numbers? – No, some do but most don’t, those that are not BC members tend to fall into the following groups:

• Our own club members – We assume there is no requirement for BC membership as it is a club event
  Youth members of other clubs – Assume the other club has a BC affiliated youth section and therefore there is no requirement for BC membership
  Adult members of other clubs, independent adults and youths – Charge BC temporary membership on top of entry fee.

Do they provide proof of membership? – Rarely, I know they should and would like tighten up on this but haven’t go there yet. BC members are relatively easy as they just need to show their card. Members of BC affiliated youth sections are much more difficult. We did give some of our juniors the paper BC youth section membership cards for one event they were going to but not sure they ever showed them to anyone. When I have asked for youth section cards it usually gets a blank response, I don’t think most people know they exist. I assume the list of clubs with BC affiliated youth sections is fairly static and so if it could be extracted from BC it would be useful if Div 4 online entries could select which one they belong to.

What do you do about those that think they have membership through their club? – Trust them, as above probably not the text book answer but I’m sure I’m not the only one.

Do you require non-members to pay for day membership? – If it is very clear they are not a BC member via any route.

Would you expect the system to take for day membership or can you manage this on the day as it means more form filling and they may have joined in the meantime? – On the day would be absolutely fine.

Will you still get paddlers to complete the reverse of the cards (we only provide printing options for the front) and get them to sign? – Would be great if the online entry system could collect all the information that goes on the card but I wouldn’t expect the back to be printed. Rather than get each card signed, I’d probably opted to produce a sheet with the consent statement at the top that all Div 4 paddlers (or their parents/guardians) sign. The advantage of the single sheet is that I don’t need to search through cards that are ready to run the race with in order to get them signed.

Can we just collect the very basics for entry/start list (name, club, age cat, class) and you do the bc numbers etc on the day? – My preference would be for all information to be collected but it’s not a showstopper. I’d suggest that the systems captures year of birth and calculates the status (Jxx) as Div 4s often don’t get this right.

I’d suggest keeping online Div 4 entries as simple as possible, just collect all the information that goes on the entry card, take the payment, put them on the start list, allow the organiser to print the front of their card and inform the entrant they need to report to control to sign and either prove their BC membership or pay the temporary membership fee.

Patrick

[jke]

I was going to respond some time ago but forgot. Patrick’s contribution has prompted me.

Your questions about BC membership. I concur with Patrick with the addition of:

• Most div 4s have never heard of BC which is a point I put to David Joy at a roadshow earlier this year in the context of clubs being given promotional material.
• “our own club members”. That will be their own affiliated club. Never mind club event.
• I assume juniors from established clubs have affiliated membership. My club did give out cards to its own slalom junior members a couple of years ago but doesn’t happen every year. Just when we remember it.

Div 4s online. This is a good idea for those that can but only for pre-entries who can satisfy all the data requirements. Introduce div 4 online if you can deal with the membership and signature issues but not have it partial so that there is no confusion between online and card on the day.

The majority of div 4 entries are going to be from juniors from affiliated clubs so focus on these with a drop down to choose affiliated club and matched to age, if that is deemed permissible.
On the day should still be cards.

And keep day membership out of the system.

This year, with the online system for div 3 where “incomplete” cards are used on the day, this generated confusion at Control in the Control Clerk knowing who has paid and more importantly who required to present a completed card ie. signature and address. It’s always hectic first thing Saturdays where there is a div 4 component with so many div 4s entering on the day so this didn’t help. I can see a partial online system adding to the confusion.

[Dee]

Thanksfor the replies:

First off - I have, against my better judgement - started to try and extend the entry system to div 4s as for some organisers this appears to be quite key. Even keeping it simple - it is anything but!

One of my issues is thinking forwards to MCD I have to know whether my div 4 C1 paddler is the same person as my div 3 K1 paddler or another div 4 K1 paddler:

• when a div 4 paddler tries to enter they have a list (much like the bib list but the same list for all classes) to select from
• They also have an add button.
• The add button then asks if they are already ranked in another class - yes or no
• if yes they select existing details and we will pick up their details from the ranking info
• if no then we will ask for name, club (from list), year of birth (from which we will derive age category), whether they have BC/WCA etc membership and, if so, what the membership number is (we also have email from login info)

To have any chance of achieving this I will need to require (somewhat artificially) names at div 4 to be unique (and unique from existing paddlers). This is to have some chance of stopping paddlers from adding their details multiple times (though if James insists on adding himself as Jamie, Jim, James T etc there really is nothing I can do). Question 1 - Does this sound OK as an approach?

My next issue is if James enters K1M div 4, is promoted to div 3 and then enters 3K1M and 4C1M, I won't have the link. The best thing I can come up with here is that when James enters div 4 C1M we display the basic details and have a button for him to update and tell us that he is in K1M div 3. If we match the name we could force a yes/no. Without this link we just won't give MCD. This is far from ideal as it makes the event entering more complex. There is also no way I can think of to guarantee update of this info. Question 2 - Can anyone think of a way around this?

Similarly if they join the BC/SCA..... part way through the season, I have no way of knowing.

I also have a problem that that the system pretty much revolves around bib numbers and paddlerids and div 4s don't have either so all the information that tells you that you have entered/been accepted/on the waiting list has got to be expanded. At least I know what I'm doing with this bit!

I think, by definition, all div 4s that entered online will need to report to control to either prove membership or pay for day membership and to sign consent. (jke - although we do have a reminder at time of payment which the user has to check, I do not think that this is adequate to replace the physical signature for div 4s - ranked paddlers do this on bib applications).

Options:

• I add rtc codes automatically for all div 4s entering on line so that they a) are identified on the start list and b) appear on the rtc list that the organiser can take to have in control.
• I provide a print out of all div 4s that entered on line with the risk statement at the top and space for the div 4s/parents to sign, membership numbers where available, and perhaps some check boxes for proof of membership seen/day membership paid for. This could be held in control alongside the rtc list. I think this is pretty much what Patrick is saying he would do, CeeBee/jke would it work for you do you think.

Note: postal entries would be separate.
Question 3 - any preferences/thoughts about which is the best option

[Dee]

.......
• I assume juniors from established clubs have affiliated membership. My club did give out cards to its own slalom junior members a couple of years ago but doesn’t happen every year. Just when we remember it.
.....
This is a good idea for those that can but only for pre-entries who can satisfy all the data requirements.
......
This year, with the online system for div 3 where “incomplete” cards are used on the day, this generated confusion at Control in the Control Clerk knowing who has paid and more importantly who required to present a completed card ie. signature and address. It’s always hectic first thing Saturdays where there is a div 4 component with so many div 4s entering on the day so this didn’t help. I can see a partial online system adding to the confusion.

A couple of specifics here

juniors only have automatic affiliated membership if they are in a club that has a registered official youth section. Many of our well established clubs do not have this type of affiliation to the BC etc, therefore we can't assume that "juniors from established clubs have affiliated membership". It is just a really stupid querk of the membership/affiliation system! Juniors and, for that matter, other club members rarely know anything about the type of club affiliation and, to my mind this is not a problem that I can solve with online entry.

Are you saying that div4s can only enter online if they have a BC/SCA/WCA/CANI number? Note that I have absolutely no way of checking validity.

I'm sorry that you ended up with confusion at control. There is an rtc list on the system which can be used for incomplete postal entries received, other than that for div 3s it should really only be those that enter on the day. Is this just a question of "training" the control clerk. Do you have any thoughts as to what we could have done to reduce this? Which competition was yours?

[Dee]

the only other way I can think of resolving all this is that we have a div 4 "ranking" officer - any div 4 wanting to enter on line sends proof of membership to this officer who then adds them to the ranking database system with a div 4 number (basically a bib number without the bib) I could then just treat all registered div 4s as ranked paddlers. The trouble is, quite apart from requiring another official and impacting the ranking database, it sort of goes against the whole concept of div 4s.