Online Entries - The Future - Have your Say?

[jke]

juniors only have automatic affiliated membership if they are in a club that has a registered official youth section.

Yes understand. My loose use of terms.
I was suggesting that they could enter online if they claimed to be a member of a registered official youth section. And this element dealt with by a drop down list of registered official youth sections.

Are you saying that div4s can only enter online if they have a BC/SCA/WCA/CANI number?

My scenario only dealt with members of registered official youth sections as my view was that that was the bulk of div 4 entries. If they are actually an individual member of a NGB then you would probably need a link to NGB systems. I don't think any are set up currently for use by other than headquarters stakeholders.

Is this just a question of "training" the control clerk.

Yes I think that would help. We were thrown by it being the first time we had composite entries. Training to ensure the clerk firstly understands what has been provided by the online system and secondly to check that "manual" entries are completed correctly. It was Langham Farm.

the only other way I can think of resolving all this is that we have a div 4 "ranking" officer

No that would just be overkill.

[jke]

First off - I have, against my better judgement - started to try and extend the entry system to div 4s…
One of my issues is thinking forwards to MCD…

Just ignore MCD. At least don’t deal with it online. I thought the purpose of MCDs was to encourage paddlers to enter more than one class. So, job done, that happens these days. And I think for the sake of £3 someone’s not going to decide not to do a second class now. For the organiser though it just complicates things, particularly with online where it is (currently) out of scope. So, get rid of it.

I think, by definition, all div 4s that entered online will need to report to control to either prove membership or pay for day membership and to sign consent. (jke - although we do have a reminder at time of payment which the user has to check, I do not think that this is adequate to replace the physical signature for div 4s - ranked paddlers do this on bib applications).

I think I’m resigned to the fact that there will need to be some action on the day so don’t fret over electronic signature. In my previous post I was thinking signature at bib application was electronic but not so, you have to post stuff.

Options… add rtc codes / provide a print out. CeeBee/jke would it work for you do you think.

If div 4s have to sign then we need the print out with the risk statement. This is better than signing individual cards. In which case we don’t need the rtc codes. It doesn’t stop the organiser from adding a code if there is something funny with an individual entry though. Try it for next year and see how it goes.

[JimW]

Some thoughts for div 4.
For other non-ranked/recreational events like Hurley Classic and Wet West Paddle Fest, there are usually online entry systems which allow you to supply all your details and pay entry fees, but every participant is still required to report to control (info tent or similar) to show proof of membership/insurance and pick up bibs, wrist bands for shuttles, event t-shirts, goody bags etc.
From what I have seen, those systems create reports that tell whoever is running the on the day registration who everyone is and what they have paid for. For WWPF I think it just one line per participant, for Hurley classic where there are lots of different events over the weekend I'm sure there is a printer A4 sheet for every competitor listing which events they have entered and whether they have also paid for t-shirts or hoodies and wat size etc.

At the moment I think we are concentrating on the output being the results card, why not have the system generate a summary report as well as cards for each competitor? (Oh wait, that is question 3 isn't it?)

The summary can list all the different classes the competitor has entered (assume they enter them all in a single transaction, unless there can be a way to log back on to a previously completed entry to add additional classes?), which NA they claim to belong to (with number), which club (noting whether it has an affiliated youth section) and so on, so that the entry clerk will have all the information to hand when the competitor reports in on the day of the event. Have the required signature on the summary rather than the results cards, so the cards can be sorted out inadvance, and a check box to confirm that a membership card of some kind has been shown, or a temporary membership bought on the day. Maybe it would even be possible to have a report which prints out a partly filled in temporary membership application to save time on the day?

Your approach seems OK but I wonder if there is a better way? I may have missed something fundamental which makes my way impossible, and I realise it probably requires the whole system to revamped, but consider this:
- Create a permanent login for each person. Use their NA and membership number along with name to make a unique identity. If they don't have a membership yet, their address provides a clue as to which NA they will join, and assign a temporary ID (like HMRC assign temporary tax codes).
- For each login have a tick box for K1, C1, C2, add a new class.
- When ticked each of the K1, C1 and C2 boxes opens up fields for division and bib number.
- When the add a new class is ticked offer a choice of C2 (ranked), K1 (div 4), C1 (div 4), C2 (div 4). If K1 or C1 was already checked above, the corresponding option here should be greyed out or not presented, similarly if either K1, C1 or C2 has already been checked along with a division of 2 and above, the K1 and C1 div4 options should be greyed out because the person should apply for a bib before racing. C2 has to stay live because it is the division below the division of the lowest ranked competitor so somone in prem for all 3 could still enter a new C2 pairing with a div 3 paddler or unranked paddler and they would be a div 4 crew. Of course this will all change if there is a proposal for a single C2 division and it gets passed....
- I haven't thought of a way to manage relationships involving C2's with unranked competitors, but I think for ranked competitors as long as each crew member can remember either the K1 or C1 bib of their partner they should be able to pick them out of a list - maybe the unranked competitor needs to tell the other their temporary ID so both can be correctly identified? Perhaps once both members of the crew have been identified the crew is given an internal ID in lieu of a bib number so that the system can continue to identify that partnership, and the ID can be linked with both competitors?

So if the competitor is able to manage their classes/bibs/crews in the online system (subject to having to pick from the ranking list when ranked), when they come to enter a race, they should just be presented with a list of the classes they have already associated with themselves. If they select more than one class which is eligible for MCD for a particular race, the system should be able to recognise that MCD is to be applied, although since only 1 copmpetitor of a C2 crew gets it, the event also needs to track the C2s and make sure only the first person to claim MCD gets it.
In this way it should be easy to print off a record for each person showing exactly what they have entered, with whom, and how much has been paid, so that the entry clerk has all the info to hand in case there is any dispute.

Similarly, once a competitor is promoted, as soon as their new bib is available in the online system it should be up to them to change it. Maybe the system could then re-calculate all their future entries and change PU to new division, and cancel old division (perhaps generating a pop-up offering an officials entry).
Also if a competitor joins their NGB after creating an entry, they should be able to update that part of their profile (which will change the temporary ID to a proper one and propogate the change to all events entered). They will still need to present their card at control to prove that the number is real and because the rules currently state that any participant presenting without a bib must show their card (whether organisers manage to enforce it or not), and it would only do minor environmental harm if a temporary membership form was printed out anyway just in case the card is forgotten or something.

Which reminds me of another idea - when a competitor completes online entry they should get a printable summary/receipt, I think this is a good place to include a notice that all div 4 competitors must report to control with either a NA membership card, or a youth section membership card if applicable, otherwise they will need to buy a temporary membership on the day. (I think this can be mostly claimed back less an admin fee if they are actually a member and forgot their card?). Similarly it could include a reminder to all other divisions that if they forget their bib they will need to prove membership or buy a day membership - the SCA card is credit card sized and I really don't understand why all members don't carry it as a matter of course, I remember the old BCU card was a stupid size, is it still?

Postal entries would be separate, they always will be.

I wonder if there is any point having an option to fill in details online, and then send a cheque (requiring organiser to confirm that payment was received, or not) - obviously the entry would be unconfirmed until the cheque is confirmed by the organiser and the place could be taken in the mean time. The reason I thought of that, was that it might be easier for some events to set up a couple of laptops where on the day entries actually register and fill in an online entry which is then printed and handed to the entry clerk to finish off? I appreciate that some venues have no internet so this would not be feasible. In that scenario the competitor will probably be paying cash or cheque rather than online, hence the idea to allow online entry (provisional) with offline payment.

Those are some of my ideas, I have never successfully programmed a database and I know from other programming that what seems right when you plan it needs to be turned upside down to actually work in the program so I'm braced to be told it just can't work that way

[Dee]

.... Just ignore MCD. At least don’t deal with it online.
...
I think I’m resigned to the fact that there will need to be some action on the day
....
If div 4s have to sign then we need the print out with the risk statement.
....
Try it for next year and see how it goes.

For every request for div 4s, there are two that want MCD included. Although our rules are consistent-ish, requirements of organisers and competitors are not! My only hope is that someone puts forward an ACM motion to abolish MCD.

There will always be action on the day as for div 4s we need to hand out bibs and that woul be a tad tricky online

I can produce a sheet for div 4s so we can try that.

[Dee]

JimW - I'm not sure how much you have used the entry system, but I suspect you haven't seen the current organiser pages.

At the moment I think we are concentrating on the output being the results card, why not have the system generate a summary report as well as cards for each competitor? (Oh wait, that is question 3 isn't it?)

Q3 is specifically about div 4s, but the system also provides other output. Cards were a very recent addition as most div2s and below need them. The system provides for csv downloads that can be opened in a spread sheet and manipulated as the organiser wants. In addition there are some onscreen finance reports (which could be printed) that, amongst other things lists, by payment, the entries by competitor

The summary can list all the different classes the competitor has entered (assume they enter them all in a single transaction, unless there can be a way to log back on to a previously completed entry to add additional classes?)

At the moment we do keep transactions separate. So if a paddler enters C1 and K1 at different times we will have two separate payment transactions (similarly if they enter different days at different times). The down side to this is that when we take payment there has been one occasion where one payment has gone through and the other payment has been rejected by the bank - this meant a failed payment email was sent out at the same time as the receipt which was understandably a bit confusing. But merging payments also has its issues - what happens if someone is trying to spread cost over two accounts etc.

Create a permanent login for each person. Use their NA and membership number along with name to make a unique identity. If they don't have a membership yet, their address provides a clue as to which NA they will join, and assign a temporary ID (like HMRC assign temporary tax codes).

We use email as login and generate a unique userID behind the scenes, but a user may correspond to more than one paddler (think mum with two kids or father and daughter etc, etc)

The big difference is that the HMRC is in control of tax codes and temporary tax codes. We are not. Even more than that the NAs are responsible for issuing the membership numbers (4 different organisations with varying degrees of computerisation, and none with systems that I have access to). The ranking database issues paddler ids but only for ranked paddlers. NA numbers can be stored on the ranking database, from where we can get them, but there are gaps.

- For each login have a tick box for K1, C1, C2, add a new class.
- When ticked each of the K1, C1 and C2 boxes opens up fields for division and bib number.
- When the add a new class is ticked offer a choice of C2 (ranked), K1 (div 4), C1 (div 4), C2 (div 4). If K1 or C1 was already checked above, the corresponding option here should be greyed out or not presented, similarly if either K1, C1 or C2 has already been checked along with a division of 2 and above, the K1 and C1 div4 options should be greyed out because the person should apply for a bib before racing. C2 has to stay live because it is the division below the division of the lowest ranked competitor so somone in prem for all 3 could still enter a new C2 pairing with a div 3 paddler or unranked paddler and they would be a div 4 crew. Of course this will all change if there is a proposal for a single C2 division and it gets passed....

This is broadly what happens. Selecting class will give user the correct options for division (more complex than you think as don't forget vets). The add button will appear for div 4s

- I haven't thought of a way to manage relationships involving C2's with unranked competitors, but I think for ranked competitors as long as each crew member can remember either the K1 or C1 bib of their partner they should be able to pick them out of a list

Did you know that just starting to type a name in the 'bib' selection box will bring up the appropriate paddler(s). No need for bib number. I have thought about ways of managing div 4 C2s but they are all more complex than I'd like. In some ways if scratch C2s can enter any race it is simpler (though I still need to know who the paddlers are to do MCD)

If they select more than one class which is eligible for MCD for a particular race, the system should be able to recognise that MCD is to be applied, although since only 1 competitor of a C2 crew gets it, the event also needs to track the C2s and make sure only the first person to claim MCD gets it.

. Also need to think about number of days and cancellations so much more complex than this.

In this way it should be easy to print off a record for each person showing exactly what they have entered, with whom, and how much has been paid, so that the entry clerk has all the info to hand in case there is any dispute.

Already doable!

Similarly, once a competitor is promoted, as soon as their new bib is available in the online system it should be up to them to change it. Maybe the system could then re-calculate all their future entries and change PU to new division, and cancel old division (perhaps generating a pop-up offering an officials entry). Also if a competitor joins their NGB after creating an entry, they should be able to update that part of their profile (which will change the temporary ID to a proper one and propogate the change to all events entered).

Expecting paddlers to update their own details is optimistic at best. Once a paddler is in the ranking system we can, and do, track promotions. PUs with accepted entries can be updated by organiser at push of a button. The only reasons that we can't completely automate this are
a) there are no defined rules as to what should happen to the paddle ups position on the waiting list at promotion.
b) we could end up with duplicate entries as paddlers have been known to re-enter in their new division on promotion without cancelling original entry
I can resolve b but my hands are tied on a

They will still need to present their card at control to prove that the number is real and because the rules currently state that any participant presenting without a bib must show their card (whether organisers manage to enforce it or not), and it would only do minor environmental harm if a temporary membership form was printed out anyway just in case the card is forgotten or something.

Absolutely agree re presenting cards. I'm not going to handle temporary membership forms in the system. This really is up to the organiser

Which reminds me of another idea - when a competitor completes online entry they should get a printable summary/receipt, I think this is a good place to include a notice that all div 4 competitors must report to control with either a NA membership card, or a youth section membership card if applicable, otherwise they will need to buy a temporary membership on the day.

The 'My Entries' section of the website provides a user with all the details of their entries and status. Receipts are only sent when we receive payment. This is taken 3 weeks before the race. Competition name is on the receipt but we're limited as to how much detail we can include

Postal entries would be separate, they always will be.

Yes and no. It has to be possible for postal entries to be added so that start lists can be generated and the organiser has all the entries in one place

The reason I thought of that, was that it might be easier for some events to set up a couple of laptops where on the day entries actually register and fill in an online entry

Would you really want paddlers in wet kit having access to your laptop! I'm not doing this either paddlers enter and pay on line or they don't. Adding the payontheday option is just another layer of complexity.

Those are some of my ideas, I have never successfully programmed a database and I know from other programming that what seems right when you plan it needs to be turned upside down to actually work in the program so I'm braced to be told it just can't work that way

Thanks for the ideas. Much of what you suggest is similar to the current operation. The difficulties are in the details!

Our rules as to who can enter what, how much it costs etc are ridiculously complex, which is of course why so many get postal entries wrong. It would be much, much easier if we could adopt a one race, one fee approach, but we have a system that charges different amounts for double events than singles and then adds a multi class discount (but only once for doubles). Then paddlers need to understand what is a double event - so many think that a paddle up entry on Saturday with a host entry on Sunday should count as a double; some think that C1 Saturday and K1 Sunday is a double, others think they should get MCD and it is really just two singles.

Complexities also abound around identification which is why non ranked paddlers are a headache. IDs really should not rely on NA numbers; apart from not being available for all, they can change!

In season promotion, paddle ups, vets, 'special' races (pan Celtics, selection, championships) all add another layer, along with the requirements for two different timing systems which have different needs.

The thing is for ranked paddlers entering via the system is currently easy and intuitive; paddlers don't need to be taught how to do it as it is reasonably obvious. A lot of my problems stem from needing to make the div 4s experience equally simple but still retain the integrity in the system and deal with all the underlying complexities in an almost invisible manner.

At the same time organisers want and need control over their competitions and all have slightly different needs and wants. Their screens have to be more complex and need to provide a lot of functionality but still need to retain a fair degree of apparent simplicity and intuitiveness. Achieving this is very hard and I'm well aware that I haven't quite managed it, although I hope we are not too far off. Every time we add something to the system there is a danger of upsetting the balance which really explains my reluctance. I'm just scared of getting it wrong

[JimW]

JimW - I'm not sure how much you have used the entry system, but I suspect you haven't seen the current organiser pages.

Only as a competitor, and come to think of it, I did all my online entries a while ago and I'm sure you have announced some modifications since I last used the system...

I guess it just seemed odd to me that I needed to type my bib or name in to every race rather it having my bib numbers already associated with my login so I just needed to choose whether to enter K1 or C1 or usually both. I see now that it makes it easy for a parent to enter several offspring from one login, but surely it also makes mistakes possible - say I type 66 instead of 65 and fail to notice that it isn't my name which has appeared?

We are going to need to have a get together about how we organise next years event, I would like to be able to use online entries for it.

[Dee]

Only as a competitor, and come to think of it, I did all my online entries a while ago and I'm sure you have announced some modifications since I last used the system...

I guess it just seemed odd to me that I needed to type my bib or name in to every race rather it having my bib numbers already associated with my login so I just needed to choose whether to enter K1 or C1 or usually both. I see now that it makes it easy for a parent to enter several offspring from one login, but surely it also makes mistakes possible - say I type 66 instead of 65 and fail to notice that it isn't my name which has appeared?

We are going to need to have a get together about how we organise next years event, I would like to be able to use online entries for it.

Ah! I've just twigged what you mean. I have been wondering about saving the last selected bib details and displaying those as the default - this could be beneficial to many. Apart from parents and offspring I've noticed one or two coaches that have entered their paddlers so I definitely need to keep the flexibility for multiple paddlers to be selected by multiple users, but I might try to make it quicker for the one to ones, which probably accounts for at least 50%.

I think the chances of entering the wrong paddler into a competition by mistake are sufficiently negligible to not worry about - For a start when selecting bib number the name is displayed alongside the bib number, we then display the name and club info about the entry selections AND we display the names again on the payment screen. We tend to be attuned to our own names so probably don't really notice, but someone elses name would jar. We have gone through the year without anyone making this error (at least to my knowledge). The nearest was someone who contacted me to say their bib number on the system was wrong (it was the person concerned that was wrong, not the system).

You will of course be welcome to use the system next year. I believe that for this year the benefits have been much greater at P/1 comps, but as we introduce more functionality for the lower divisions, eg card printing, and, if I can get it working reliably, div 4s, then hopefully the lower divisions will also start to reap greater benefits.

[CeeBee]

Now we have moved to online entries, most of the landscape side of the entry card is not used at an event. The portrait side for clerks to use to record penalties and the times for run 1 and run 2 is the important part. Those that enter a race on the day, typically do not bring entry cards and are given entry cards to complete which they find hard to follow. In the 'old' days, the entry cards were sent off to the ranking list compiler but are now destroyed after the race.

So, I think it would be easier to have an A4 landscape template to print off for the organiser to use for entries on the day which captures the required information e.g.

Surname First name Year of Birth Club E-mail Assumed Risks Signature BC/SCA/CW/CANI Member - yes/no Division Class Sat Sun Multi class -y/n Fee
1
2
3
4


This template would match any template that the lovely kind Dee produces for online entries.

So, Div 4 paddlers who enter on line would come into control to show membership and sign for assumed risk before being given a racing bib. Any Div 3 paddler who has entered online but doesn't have a bib would also have to show membership and sign for assumed risk as we do not know if they have applied for a bib and have therefore proved membership and signed for assumed risks.

Paddlers entering on the day would provide all of this info to the clerk and all the data would be on 1 sheet. It would then easily be transferred onto the results side of the entry cards either when the data is entered onto the computer for each class or from the start list before the event starts.

I'm in favour of multi class discounts but appreciate that this adds a layer of complexity. However, I think at Div 3/4 events, we should be encouraging multi class participation for no or little more than a single entry. We found that by waiving the extra fee at our event in June, lots of the paddlers entered C1 and C2 as well as K1 and had fun.

Most of the Div 4 K1 will not do C1 or C2 as they are usually doing their first couple of races. It is the Div 3 K1 who we encourage to do C1 and C2. A double Div 3 entry is £13 and even with a MC discount a Div 3 C1 or C2 on top is another £10 (they tend to get promoted to Div 3 in C1 and C2 fairly quickly). This is definitely off-putting , particularly since we often have siblings paddling who have therefore already paid £26. So I would like the extra fee to be reduced to between £0-£3 for an extra class.

[JimW]

Most of the Div 4 K1 will not do C1 or C2 as they are usually doing their first couple of races. It is the Div 3 K1 who we encourage to do C1 and C2. A double Div 3 entry is £13 and even with a MC discount a Div 3 C1 or C2 on top is another £10 (they tend to get promoted to Div 3 in C1 and C2 fairly quickly). This is definitely off-putting , particularly since we often have siblings paddling who have therefore already paid £26. So I would like the extra fee to be reduced to between £0-£3 for an extra class.

That might be difficult for events that are borderline for breaking even, I'm all for encouraging participation but we need to balance the books too.

[John Sturgess]

Jim makes a valid point where C1 is concerned
However free entry for C2's would have very little cost impact ad ot much revenue impact, and would help with the matters discussed on the simultaneous C2 thread.
There are already organisers who provide C2's and paddles, and older paddlers to effectively take youngsters on a Disney-style ride down the course: and why not?

[Dee]

Somewhat off topic but .......

My main arguments against MCD are that it is too complex and it does not achieve its purpose.

A lot of organisers will tell you that the majority of advance entrants don't claim MCD as they don't realise it's available and yet they still enter. So it really makes little difference to entries.

Those that do claim MCD, frequently miscalculate it because it is too complicated.

I think that the reason for all those extra on the day entries in another class is just that someone has actively encouraged individuals to have a go and offered them a boat and said how much fun it will be. Nothing like the personal touch!

Regarding John's point on C2s - I'd argue that the C2s cost more, as for every 'place' you need two prizes rather than one.

RANT MODE ON........
Having different rates for single, double, multiclass is bad enough, making rates dependent on class as well (by making C2 cheaper) goes from nightmare to farcical. Please note this is not just from a system point of view (though trust me when I say that it adds real complications and pages to the code), but also from the point of view of new paddlers struggling to understand the ranking system and how much to pay. We really need to stop adding complicated tweeks and keep, or rather make, it simple.
RANT MODE OFF

[Patrick O'Hara]

100% Agree with you Dee, it is far too complicated, if we want to encourage people to step forward and organise events in the future everything possible must be done to simplify wherever possible.

Patrick

[Dee]

Well, I think I have finally got online entries working acceptably for div 4s.

The process of entering is the same as that for ranked paddlers, but when div 4 is selected you get a list of div 4 registered paddlers to choose from and an "Add to the List Button".

If adding to the list, then you get a pop-up modal with the first question "Are you ranked in another class"
- yes then you are asked to select your current ranking (class, division, and bib/paddler (split into 2 for C2s to choose which paddler)) and are reminded to take proof of BC/CANI... membership to control
- no then we collect the details and then display risk statement and tell paddlers to go to control etc on arrival.
Once accepted you are able to enter as per usual.

You can then enter additional events in div 4 for the rest of the year by selecting your name from the drop down list.

I am forcing unique names for div 4s (who are not ranked elsewhere). I know this probably is not pc, but it is practical at competitions and for most people won't create a problem.
There are some controls around gender, checking that you not already ranked in the class you are trying to enter etc, but I'm not checking everything, just things where I think mistakes are likely.

I still need to do some work to the organiser pages - particularly around a "sign-in" list, but that is the easy bit!

Note that all div 4 entries are loaded with a startlist bib number of 999. It is up to the organisers to allocate bib numbers, which can be done on the manage entry pages.

I have not yet done anything about non-ranked C2s and will not until the ACM at the earliest.

So now I need a guinea pig competition.

[harratts]

How many Guinea Pigs are competing in Div. 4 then these days?

Sorry but I could not resist.
Steve

[Dee]