Time to limit or split Premier Division ?

[DavidDickson]

Wondered what the plan is for Premier Division going forward - I remember reading in a yearbook a couple of years back that the plan was to reduce Premier to around 60 K1 M paddlers (can't remember exact figure). At the moment there are nearly 100 K1M in Premier Division and with paddle up entries and officials, it is becoming difficult to get an entry for some races.

If we look at the upcoming McConkey race, the race limit of 200 has been reached and there is a waiting list of over 60 paddlers with at least 10 of these Premier division paddlers. All of these people entered before the 2 week deadline.

Whilst the large numbers wanting to race is great for our sport - we need to have a system that can cater for them.

Between paddle ups (23) and officials (29) 52 of the 200 available entries have been taken up

Maybe paddle up entries should only be allocated after the 2 week deadline so that paddlers within that actual division are given priority ?

I understand that event timetables and start lists are difficult to plan but maybe we need to change the entry deadline to 4 weeks before the race to give the organisers more time.

There is also a large gap between the standard of paddling at the top and bottom of the division which would maybe suggest that it's time to split the division but I guess this would mean more races which we may struggle to run.

Just putting it out there for discussion as it looks like things may need to change to cater for the numbers wanting to compete.

[CeeBee]

Ah, an unintended consequence of Paddle Up. Too many Paddle Ups taking Host division places.

There are a variety of ways this could be addressed, but it needs to be simple to understand and simple for the organiser and the online entry system.

I think that if the race is full at the point you try to enter on line or by post, then anyone in the host division should leapfrog paddlers on the waiting list. So for the Paul McConkey, the waiting list would the prem paddlers in date order followed by the Div 1 paddlers in date order i.e. priority is given to the host division.

[JimW]

Hmm, confusing that we now have Priority Entry Deadline of 4 weeks before competition (after which paddle ups are processed) and Entry deadline of 2 weeks before competition (after which late fees are applicable).
The priority entry deadline was extended to give paddle up competitors more opportunity to book accommodation and make travel plans - is it just that in-division paddlers haven't realised that and still think they can leave it until 2 weeks before to get their entries in?

More experienced race organisers might be able to comment on the officials entry because I can't find it in the rules, but I somehow have an understanding that officials entries are in addition to the published limit for the event. There can be up to 60 officials (that is in the rules), so organisers basically have to allow 2 hours (for prem, 2.5 for other divisions) each day for officials, which might not all be used, but which shouldn't impact people getting entries to the ranked competition?

[CeeBee]

I spoke to my 'go to expert' and their understanding is that officials are over and above the 200 paddler limit.

[boatmum]

I think one of the issues is the new rules havent been taken on board by paddlers.

People will say paddlers should read the ACM resolutions or look on chatter. Maybe they should but I know of many, many younger adult paddlers who wont look at chatter because they dont feel any ownership of it and see it as a forum for official type people and parents.

Going forward could resolutions that impact basics like entry deadlines be put on the website homepage or on the race calendar so it is clear.

Regarding the premier division I would agree with David it is becoming enormous but the need I guess is for more races whether the division is split or remains as is. The organisational impact of paddle up is becoming apparent.

[DavidDickson]

Yes, I must admit I hadn't read the ACM resolutions and wasn't aware of the 'Priority Entry Deadline' of 4 weeks. This makes sense giving people more time to plan for races.

However, the over capacity situation we now have should come as no surprise. Div 1 events have been bursting at the seams for the last few years with races full up months before the race weekend and start lists running from 7am to 6pm each day.

There are just too many paddlers in Div 1 and now Prem.

Whilst this growth in the sport is good we need to find a strategy to deal with it or we will lose the numbers.

I think Paddle Ups were created to give paddlers - particularly Div 1's more opportunities to paddle on harder water as many Div 1 events were considered to be on too easy or boring water.

What this is really telling us is that we need to improve the standard of Div 1 races to be on harder more exiting water.

We really need an intermediate division between the current Div 1 and Prem - if we look at this season's prem races there are typically 25 seconds of raw time between the top and bottom paddlers in mens k1. Whilst it may be unpopular to say so these athletes are not really of the same standard and should not be racing in the same division.

Also people want more from their race weekends - travelling from Scotland to HPP is a 700 mile round trip for us and we will be lucky to get change out of £250 for the cost of the weekend's 3 minutes of racing.

Many Div 1's have entered the Prem and are on the waiting list of the McConkey because they want to race both days. I imagine Prems want to race both days on a race weekend too. We really need to be offering all races as double events to give people value for money.

I understand putting on more races is difficult but I think if we don't - we will lose competitors and continue to remain a minority sport. Nearly all our races are run by hard working clubs and volunteers who do a brilliant job but the reality is we are struggling to manage the numbers wanting to race.

It's not fair for the numerous volunteers to spend 13 hour days judging and timing in all weathers. Maybe we need to look to outsourcing events to event management organisations ? What happens to all the money given to our governing bodies for race levies ? Could this be put towards event management ?

[DavidDickson]

Also worth noting that after the McConkey race there are about 17 weeks before the next Prem race. I know this point has been raised before but could we not put more races on during this period ?

[Dee]

I spoke to my 'go to expert' and their understanding is that officials are over and above the 200 paddler limit.

True for most competitions but there are a few for which officials places are included in the limit

PS. McConkey is one of those that has included officials in overall entry limit

[Dee]

Also worth noting that after the McConkey race there are about 17 weeks before the next Prem race. I know this point has been raised before but could we not put more races on during this period ?

Are you volunteering to run one

To be honest I think this is at least in part to do with water availability - natural rivers are running lower and not reliably big enough for prem, artificial courses are busy making money from rafting and are probably prohibitively expensive

[DavidDickson]

There are about 24 Div 1 officials entered in the McConkey on Saturday - obviously they are there for the weekend - want to race both days and are prepared to judge to get runs. Whilst there help is greatly appreciated - they take up a lot of the events capacity if they are included in the 200 limit. Again, this is just another sign that we have over capacity and competitors want their moneys worth when it comes to an expensive weekend's racing.......

[DavidDickson]

Are you volunteering to run one

Yes, I would be happy to run an event in England if I could muster a team to help.

[WindsorCC]

It strikes me that if there is a need to reduce the size of Prem and Div 1, it's going to be a painful exercise as those demoted aren't going to be happy, but given the lack of affordable sites for more races, there doesn't seem to be any other option?

I was 'on a break' when the rules changed so don't know why, but obviously it wasn't a problem when there was no in-year promotion for Div 1 and Prem, so easy just to demote the bottom X and promote the top X, keeping the division sizes the same.

Are the current issues with the size of Prem and 1 caused by a desire to keep everyone happy by not demoting enough people?

Just been and dug-out a selection of old yearbooks. Looking just at K1M...

1987 - Prem - 60 stayed up, 37 promoted end of year (total 97), 14 demoted to Div 1 (total 171 in Div 1, including promotions from Div 2), comparison - 709 in Div 3, 715 in Div 4 (was also Novice division)
1991 - Prem - 82 stayed up, 19 promoted end of year (total 101), 12 demoted to Div 1 (total 192 in Div 1, including promotions from Div 2), comparison - 442 in Div 3, 491 in Div 4 (was also Div 5)
1995 - Prem - 76 stayed up, 24 promoted end of year (total 100), 10 demoted to Div 1 (total 184 in Div 1, including promotions from Div 2), comparison - 295 in Div 3, 304 Div 4 (was also Div 5)
1999 - Prem - 68 stayed up, 10 promoted end of year (total 78), 8 demoted to Div 1 (total 120 in Div 1, including promotions from Div 2), comparison - 358 in Div 3 (only Div 4 below)

So, Prem K1M (currently 93) and Div 1 (currently 139) are comparable to the 90's, but Div 3 is currently only 243, so certainly very top-heavy.

It's been mentioned before that there's an attitude with juniors (and perhaps parents) that if they don't make Prem and ideally TID within a few seasons, then they've not been successful and leave the sport.

Another interesting stat - of the 60 K1M boats that stayed up in Prem in '87, there were 8 under 18. Compared to 39 of the current 93 boats, certainly a much younger demographic.

It does feel like some restructuring is required, accepting that some paddlers/parents aren't going to be happy about being demoted. I'm guessing paddle-up will help to make sure Prem/1 races are still financially viable. There will be more pressure on those in Prem/1 to get sufficient points to stay up.

As mentioned above, I wasn't involved at the time, but was there a particular issue that in-year promotion into P/1 solved? I'm assuming it was those progressing quickly, being ready to go up but not able to, so dominating the remainder of the season. But would slowing progress with only season-end promotion be positive in terms of allowing paddlers to develop properly, and making sure they are experienced enough to stay in P/1 when they get there if there will be more demotions?

[DavidDickson]

While Paddle Ups and portable points may give flexibility to entering races - they potentially mean we are pumping more athletes into higher divisions who may not really be of that standard and are filling up races beyond capacity at the top end of the divisional system.

The portable point systems seems pretty complicated as well - whilst some are against the divisional system - it at least means that those racing are of similar standard and it is easier to predict and control the numbers entering races and ensure we are not making events almost impossible to run.

Whilst parents and paddlers may be upset by making the steps to Premier harder and potentially demoting some paddlers - there is little point in being in Premier and being typically 20 seconds over a 90 second course slower than those at the top of the division.

One solution may be at the end of this season - is to take the bottom 30/40 from Premier and the top 50/60 or so from Div 1 and create a new intermediate division. Races at this division could be run on Premier standard water without practice runs. This would better prepare athletes for entering Premier in the future.

Whilst we may need to add some races to the calendar (perhaps during the summer months) we could perhaps change some of the current Div 1's to this new division.

This should not be seen as a step backwards - it is just a strategy for dealing with the large numbers currently wanting to race and offering better quality races helping to develop better paddlers.

[BaldockBabe]

Are you volunteering to run one

Yes, I would be happy to run an event in England if I could muster a team to help.

From the person who "manages" the calendar I think you will find that there are a number of "issues" that arise when trying to run an Prem (and to some extent a Div 1) in the summer months although I would be happy to add one into the calendar if we could.

Firstly (and perhaps the biggest issue) is the water. The natural rivers tend to be at lower levels and therefore not Prem standard (e.g. Tully) and the artificial courses are exceptionally expensive - I don't mean by a few £100's of pounds but HPP, Cardiff, Lee Valley, Tees etc are many £1,000s more expensive in the summer.

Secondly, are the athletes themselves - the team athletes (i.e. the top of the division) are away at the World Cups/ Euros and J/U23 World Champs and are therefore unable to attend. Many of the non-team paddlers are off at the English/ Welsh/ Scots camps in Europe or the ECA Cups in June/ July/ August and are therefore unable to attend. Would it be a meaningful event if many of those eligible to attend are not there?

Lastly, the volunteers. There are people who are willing to run these events but many of the volunteers are also parents of the paddlers in category 2 above and are therefore away with them. If they are not, then they are using the summer to paddle themselves or to go on holiday with non-paddling family members.

I have tried for the last few years to close the gap as much as possible (hence the McConkey in May and an HPP Prem at the start of September) and that has been doable thanks to the flexibility of the clubs that run the events. However, we can only close the gap as far as finances will allow.

Hope that helps!

[DavidDickson]

Okay so running extra races in the summer may not be a financially viable option although maybe some of the GB canoeing funding or the race levies paid to the governing bodies could be offered to help subsidize these races ? This could be seen as helping to develop the sport.

I also take your point that many paddlers and volunteers are busy during this time but I'm sure we could add at least one race during this 3 month period ?

Please understand I am not trying to be critical of the current system or any of the hardworking volunteers that run things - just trying to discuss whether there is a better way of meeting the current demands of the sport.