Time to limit or split Premier Division ?

[Dee]

I do not believe that we have a real problem with numbers in the divisions.

Ideally competitions need to run as close to full as possible in order to keep costs down.

Very few end up truly oversubscribed (there are always some drop outs).

The key exceptions this year are likely to be the Prem races on a Saturday that are immediately followed by a div 1 on the Sunday. The Saturday becomes oversubscribed because it is effectively trying to cater for two-divisions-worth of paddlers (prem and div 1).

There would have been plenty of space for all prems at McConkey without the div 1s. The prem paddlers all applied after the priority deadline, hence missing out.

It will be interesting to see whether a similar situation occurs at the September HPP race, where there are again lots of div 1 paddle ups on the Waiting list for Saturday or whether Prem paddlers realise that they need to enter that bit earlier to guarantee a place (I'm guessing Tees Barrage in October will be similar, but it's less visible at the moment).

Based on the comps using online entries (a reasonable sample for Prem), Double prem races are not showing signs of being massively over subscribed as there are significantly fewer paddle ups.

[DavidDickson]

I do not believe that we have a real problem with numbers in the divisions.

Ideally competitions need to run as close to full as possible in order to keep costs down.

Very few end up truly oversubscribed (there are always some drop outs).

Many Div 1's have been oversubscribed for the last few years with as already mentioned practice runs starting at 7am and events running through til 6 at night with very little time for volunteers to have breaks. If we carry on as we are doing it is inevitable that more Prems will become oversubscribed.

Current Premier Div

K1 M -93
K1W- 54
C1M-46
C1W-28
C2-15
Vets -21

There are currently 257 paddlers in all Prem divisons - whilst it is unlikely that they will all race by the time we add officials we are likely to be oversubscribed.

This number will only grow unlesss some restructuring is done or perhaps it will naturally decrease as competitors get fed up with not getting value for money race weekends on quality courses and pack in the sport.......

Restructuring would also improve the quality of races for those close to making Prem who would fall into the proposed intermediate division.

[JimW]

Having read through a couple of times before pressing submit, I should warn that this message contains various thoughts which may not all be entirely compatible!

There is another basic issue to deal with, which reminds me of Spinal Tap's amps which go up to 11.

We already have 2 first divisions, and now it looks like we need another first division in between them - what do we propose, pick another language, call it Div Erster?
Surely to make this work sensibly we need to renumber divisions 1 through 4 so 1 becomes 2, 2 becomes 3, 3 becomes 4, and then the top third of the new 2 and bottom third of prem are pushed into the new div 1. And do we move div 4 to 5 or take the opportunity to recognise that it isn't really a division and find a more suitable name for it?

If we renumber the divisions right across the board will paddlers accept that? Most of them are not getting demoted (only the bottom 3rd of Prem), it is simply that all of their division is now called something less impressive, but given that most of our paddlers are teenagers for whom peer acceptance is important maybe trying to explain to non-paddling mates why they appear to be in a lower division is going to be traumatic?

As for the fundamental issue of where, when and how to run the additional races, I'm not sure if I have many ideas for that. I keep trying to think of rivers/rapids that would be suitable for Prem or Div 1 level racing, and whilst I can think of some with suitable water, there is no hope for infrastructure - even finding places for the officials to park would be impossible and is just the tip of the iceberg.

I do like David's basic idea - I'm well past caring what my division is called and I am not very fast, but I do enjoy bigger water so I'm likely to be doing some paddle up and officials entries at higher division races. I am therefore very much the problem he is talking about but to keep me engaged would require lower divisions to be able to race on top level water and even top level courses. So far this year I have raced in every division except my own (2) albeit as an official.
I was not entirely happy to be a demo paddler at Tully because I expected the course would be too difficult for me, and demos were not given practice time in case it gave advantage to some Prem's who happened to be around to watch, but things were desperate so I did it, and by the end of the weekend I had put in a pretty solid (for me) officials run - 30 odd seconds off the Prem pace (the officials times are missing from the published results), but faster than my best div 2 time back in August which I was really pleased about, especially considering that the August result was my second best in div 2, surpassed only by my result at HPP.
I am now in a dilemma whether to make a real effort to try and up my game enough to get promoted to divsion 1 (which may not be possible) so that I have proper access to the hardest courses, or to continue entering higher division events as an official (or paddle up). I am very fortunate to be able to usually train with Prem paddlers and there is no doubt my K1 paddling has improved immensely over this winter through watching and copying the way they tackle sections, most of my training is done at Pinkston on 3 pumps with gates set usually by Prem paddlers or sometimes by SCA performance coach if they had the session before us, yet my division will be racing on 2 pumps with less fiendishly positioned gates. It will come as no surprise to learn that I actually changed my Officials entry for this weekends Pinkston Div 1 to Paddle Up a few weeks ago just to get some points in the ranking system - my first div 2 is now looking like Fairnilee in 6 weeks time (which I need to remember to enter having criticised others for leaving it late!)

Several people have identified that the key to keeping people in slalom is make sure it is fun - realistically that means that seniors (inc. M & V) need to be able to race on Prem level coures even if they are not actually fast enough to be in Prem and/or have given up on trying to get onto team GB.
I have friends who would like to try slalom because they saw an event (worlds?) at Lee Valley - they are from a serious WW background, they are interested in trying slalom on water like Lee Valley Olympic course (which they are already signed off to paddle by the centre), not in entering a div 4 on flat water, and then progressing up to division 2 where they will likely find their progression stalls just before they get to paddle the bigger courses....
Maybe a new division would not fit between P & 1, but alongside them for people who want good ranking competition, but do not intend to compete for team GB places? Of course there is an argument that the fastest non-contenders are keeping those below them honest...

The main issue seems to be not enough opportunity to race on the bigger UK courses, but this seems to be the most complex thing of all to resolve, and whilst splitting Prem is a good idea for preserving the quality of Prem competition, without being able to create at least as many races for the new divisions, I can't see it being viable.

So we are still back to the issue of needing more high level races, but having no-one to organise them, no more venues, and no space on the calendar?

[DavidDickson]

We already have 2 first divisions, and now it looks like we need another first division in between them - what do we propose, pick another language, call it Div Erster?
Surely to make this work sensibly we need to renumber divisions 1 through 4 so 1 becomes 2, 2 becomes 3, 3 becomes 4, and then the top third of the new 2 and bottom third of prem are pushed into the new div 1. And do we move div 4 to 5 or take the opportunity to recognise that it isn't really a division and find a more suitable name for it?

If we renumber the divisions right across the board will paddlers accept that? Most of them are not getting demoted (only the bottom 3rd of Prem), it is simply that all of their division is now called something less impressive, but given that most of our paddlers are teenagers for whom peer acceptance is important maybe trying to explain to non-paddling mates why they appear to be in a lower division is going to be traumatic?
?

In the 80's we had Prem to Div 4 then Novice division - that worked fine... or we could follow the English football system and call the new division "The Championship" - Maybe that would give it more street cred ?

[Dee]

Many Div 1's have been oversubscribed for the last few years with as already mentioned practice runs starting at 7am and events running through til 6 at night with very little time for volunteers to have breaks. If we carry on as we are doing it is inevitable that more Prems will become oversubscribed.

I agree that in 2015 a lot of Div 1s filled up really early and appeared very over subscribed. However, I believe that this was at least in part "panic-buying" and that in most cases by the time the races came round there had been an unprecedented number of cancellations and most paddlers did get their race.

[DavidDickson]

[quote="Dee"]

[DavidDickson]

I agree that in 2015 a lot of Div 1s filled up really early and appeared very over subscribed. However, I believe that this was at least in part "panic-buying" and that in most cases by the time the races came round there had been an unprecedented number of cancellations and most paddlers did get their race.

I agree - from what I've seen organisers do their utmost to ensure that most do get their runs but it still leads to really longs days for volunteers and really early starts for practice runs etc trying to cram in all the competitors.

Its not really an ideal situation both for racers and organisers/volunteers. Ideally you would want to be fully woken up and prepared before having your practice runs.

Also with events running on to 5/6pm on a Sunday night - some have 6 or 7 hour journeys home after this so school or work the next day is usually a right off.

[BaldockBabe]

Also with events running on to 5/6pm on a Sunday night - some have 6 or 7 hour journeys home after this so school or work the next day is usually a right off.

That goes for us who have to take down the equipment after the race, pack up the car and get home ready for work the next day too! It takes a good hour to take down the timing equipment after an event...

[JimW]

I'm notorious for going to work on Mondays zombified, I guess not everyone can get away with that.

[Zacharyfranklin]

I may be overlooking something obvious but I don't see the benefit of limiting division sizes beyond race capacities? I'm not aware of many Prem's becoming full although I'm sure it will happen more if the division continues to increase, perhaps a better direction would be to try and balance the size of the classes a bit more.

I see a couple of directions to go in, firstly I feel divisions should be looked at more as a standard of racing as opposed to a standard of water? I'd suggest you could have a good prem race on Matlock, Llandysul, the Legacy channel, the very bottom of HPP or other places I haven't thought of given good gate setting (why not a lake?) which is much more financially sustainable could these races be run at a profit in order to help fund races on more expensive places and allow a bit more variety to the calendar?

The other direction to look it is how you could fit more people into a day, I've seen this always get a bad response but if you removed practice runs from division 1, you could have a whole load more people racing each day, which would mean more income and more volunteers, the value for money argument doesn't make sense to me because cost per minute of paddling when racing is awful anyway. I think particularly in the K1M 60 second intervals is more than is needed, could 30-45 seconds be used and of course there will be more catch ups but I wouldn't foresee that many. Another likely very unpopular route to go would be how some smaller international races that I've been to have been run and have the first run be qualification for the second run with only the top half getting another go.

[Nick Penfold]

I think Dee's view that very few races are really oversubscribed is right, and Dave's assertion that "many" have been wouldn't stand up to analysis, though certainly some have. Not every paddler in a division wants to enter every race (on average you can expect about 66% of Prems at a Prem race and about 50% of Div 1s at a Div 1). On that basis, with the present division sizes, we could accommodate pretty much everyone.

There IS an issue with paddle up, and it has to do with when host-division priority ends. A couple of years ago this was moved from two weeks before the race to four weeks before, and I think it was a mistake. The change was made looking at things from the point of view of the paddle-ups. I'm a supporter of paddle up, but you have to remember that paddle ups are guests, paddling as a privilege, and - within reason - host division paddlers paddle as of right, and should have priority of entry to their own races.

At the next ACM I would like to see, and I would support, a motion to go back to the two week deadline, which ties up with late entry charges and so on.

[CeeBee]

Rule UKC12.3.1 says "Entries received after the limit is reached should be rejected except that the limit may be exceeded in order to make n event quorate, When a correct entry for an event is rejected no further entries should be accepted. Where the entry limit is reached, the organiser may allocate spare placed created by scratch entries, but only to those competitors whose entries have been received before the closing date for entries, but after the limit has been reached".

Competitors whose entries have been received before the closing date are essentially the "Waiting list".

This does not mandate how the spare places are allocated and as such, depending on the organisers view, could the organiser give priority to the host Division rather than Paddles Up? I think the rules don't exclude this and this would be a reasonable decision to make. And if this was so, would any of the Paddles Up be willing to forfeit their place to someone on the Host Division waiting list?

However, I'm inclined to think we should put a motion so that events are run as either a double Prem or a double Div 1s rather than combining the 2 Divisions at 1 event. Paddlers travelling long distances would rather have a double event. We would probably not then be having this discussion as all the Div 1s from Sunday wouldn't be trying to enter the Saturday and essentially treating it as a double event.

[Nick Penfold]

At the priority entry deadline, spare places are allocated to paddle ups who are on the waiting list. The organiser doesn't have the option to prefer host division paddlers.
B3.3.2 “Paddle Up” Participation Conditions
... priority of entry shall be as follows:
a) Up to the priority entry deadline: Host division paddlers, in order of receipt of entries, then “paddlers up”, in order of receipt of entries.
b) After the priority entry deadline up to entry cut-off: both Host division and “paddling up” paddlers in order of receipt of entries.
Note : the priority entry deadline is the Friday four weeks prior to the competition.

[DavidDickson]

Some good points being raised by Zac and great to have the view of a younger current paddler and coach.

I agree that challenging courses can be set on any type of water and it would be interesting to see how well this would be received or would it be dismissed as "not really proper Premier standard canoe slalom" or a "flat water slalom"........

I also agree with Nick regarding the host division priority rule but maybe it would be better to change the late entry date to 4 weeks before the race in line with the host division priority deadline. This would give paddlers and organisers more time to prepare for races.

With regards 'value for money race weekends' - whilst I agree the sport is very expensive - this should not be dismissed and just accepted - all events should be double races for that division. Travelling from central Scotland to Lee Valley, Cardiff, Bala and Nottingham are all minimum 700 mile round trips and require overnight stays - single events are incredibly uneconomical for us.

How do people from South England and Wales feel about travelling to Teeside for a single Prem ? How many would travel from the South to Tully in April if it were a single event ?

Maybe I am wrong regarding super busy Div 1 races but most of the events I have attended have been very long days and very full schedules.

Maybe another way of approaching the progression to Premier and freeing up more time to run Div One events would be to not stop all practice runs but limit them to those currently ranked in the lower half of the division ?

[Mark H]

I agree double events are more cost effective for the paddlers.
BUT HPPCC would have to increase race fees as it is cheaper to race a double event.
Paddle ups also allows the event raise a small profit. Our Prem last year had more runs
than the Div 1. We also didn't turn anyone away from either event. Long days but everyone who
wanted to race raced. It's about the paddlers isn't it ? Supported by an army of volunteers to
make it happen.
Does same division weekends mean more work for the volunteers or less venues to race on if the number
of Prems is limited? Maybe we could run a div one on the Winfield pool the same day as the Prem is on the main course
and swap the day after? It would be interesting to see how many turn up.