Prem is dead Long live Div 1P

[Arrowcraft]

There are 9 Premier Races this year. Just 9.
There is no paddle down, only paddle up. PUP

At HPP this weekend there are premier paddlers that are not going to be able to race because the slots are taken by pups. An entry was submitted three weeks before the race, so in time for the organiser to accept entries, but it is full of pups and he is number 50 on a waiting list...This is simply wrong.

I know you're all going to say well they could enter earlier blah blah blah, but he did not get paid until the end of April , by which time the pups had swamped the entries. In any event that is missing The point. There are plenty of div 1's for the div 1's to enter...and only 9 prem races for our premier paddlers to enter. If they cannot get an entry because of all the pups...then what is the point of being in prem? Why not stay in div 1, then you can enter 20 races a year...or allow the prems to race down in div 1...or rank all races as div Prem1....because that is what Prem has become...a new division where div 1's and prems race together...just call it Prem1.

There is no point in Prem. Prem as we know it is dead. You used to have to be good enough to race at a Prem. It used to mean something. Racing in Prem was a privilege that you earned through achievement. If you were good enough, you got to race in Prem. Prem is dead. Long live Prem1.

This is going to kill our sport. We need to stop this and we need to stop it right away.

[DavidDickson]

I think somewhere along the line we have forgotten that racing in Premier is supposed to be the top flight of domestic racing. It is supposed to be the elite end of the sport - things have swung too far in the direction of development.

We are opening up Premier races to anyone in Div 1, potentially to athletes who are no where near the standard required to reach Premier through promotion.

If there are problems with the standard of Div 1 races and they are not offering what is needed to develop or entertain paddlers then we need to address that issue.

For me, the McConkey race has highlighted 2 main issues :-

1. Athletes want double races (The large no of Div 1 officials and PUPs entered in Saturday's Prem are there to race the Div 1 on Sunday)

2. Some Premier athletes were unaware of the 4 week priority entry rule and therefore although they entered on time PUps had taken up the available spaces (around 20 Prem are on the waiting list)

I would like to see there being 5 double Premier races each year Tully, Lee Valley, Bala, Nottingham and either another Nottingham, Lee valley or maybe Cardiff.

Prems should only be opened up to top end Div1 PUps if there is space after the 4 week priority deadline e.g. Div 1 paddlers could gain wildcards to enter Prems if they achieve a top 10 result that season - like what used to happen at the end of season British Open.

[andy n]

One year ago my son failed to get an entry for the McConkey Prem because he missed the 4-week priority entry deadline - lesson was learnt and all entries now submitted more than 4 weeks in advance. This is not a new rule this season.

In the "Time to limit or split Premier Division ?" thread, Nick has already questioned the 4-week priority entry deadline and proposes a return to 2-week deadlines. Changes cannot be made overnight but proposals to ACM can result in change for 2018.

Stafford and Stone CC must bear some responsibility for the lengthy waiting list because their chosen race format (Championship) restricts entry numbers. Also, they choose to include officials in the entry limit whereas other clubs do not.

The cost of hosting events at many venues is significant. For the McConkey race and the HPPCC September Prem/Div 1, enhanced fees have not been charged. The income for a Double Prem race would be >£1500 less than a Prem/Div 1 (based on 200 entries per day). Would Prem paddlers accept paying enhanced fees if the McConkey event was a double?

[DavidDickson]

One year ago my son failed to get an entry for the McConkey Prem because he missed the 4-week priority entry deadline - lesson was learnt and all entries now submitted more than 4 weeks in advance. This is not a new rule this season.

In the "Time to limit or split Premier Division ?" thread, Nick has already questioned the 4-week priority entry deadline and proposes a return to 2-week deadlines. Changes cannot be made overnight but proposals to ACM can result in change for 2018.

Stafford and Stone CC must bear some responsibility for the lengthy waiting list because their chosen race format (Championship) restricts entry numbers. Also, they choose to include officials in the entry limit whereas other clubs do not.

The cost of hosting events at many venues is significant. For the McConkey race and the HPPCC September Prem/Div 1, enhanced fees have not been charged. The income for a Double Prem race would be >£1500 less than a Prem/Div 1 (based on 200 entries per day). Would Prem paddlers accept paying enhanced fees if the McConkey event was a double?

The Cardiff Prem and McConkey fall right in the middle of Scottish school exams and we were holding off entering my son in these races until we new the detail of his school exam schedule.

I have no problem with the 4 week priority entry deadline - I admit I wasn't aware of it and my son hasn't got an entry for this year's race and we accept that this is our fault. We wont make this mistake again.

This is not the fault of Stafford and Stone Canoe Club or the PUps that have successfully entered the race - they are just working within the rules.

We would be happy to pay an enhanced entry fee to make the race a double Prem - £1500/200 would be an additional £7.50 per entry. As mentioned in the other thread I would not expect to get change out of £250 to bring my son to this race so another £7.50 to make it a double would be more than welcomed.

I'm sure it would also be an easier event to plan and manage if it were a double Prem.

[Dee]

There are 9 Premier Races this year. Just 9. ........This is simply wrong. ......

I know you're all going to say well they could enter earlier blah blah blah, but he did not get paid until the end of April , by which time the pups had swamped the entries. In any event that is missing The point. ............... Prem is dead. Long live Prem1.

This is going to kill our sport. We need to stop this and we need to stop it right away.

Definitely a post living up to the forum's name.

That aside, and I know this is not the point of the post, but for future reference regarding payment
- online payments are not taken until 3 weeks before the event and even then, by using credit card he can delay further
- most (not all) organisers will not cash cheques until a couple of weeks before the event. Most organisers are also human and sympathetic, so sending a cheque with a request not to cash it until funds will be available will generally get a positive result (self-interest comes into play as none of us want the hassle of rubber cheques)

PS Unless I'm much mistaken there are always 9 Prem races - I don't think the planned number has varied for many years

[Sven]

Would Prem paddlers accept paying enhanced fees if the McConkey event was a double?

YES - trouble is the paddlers never get asked it is just assumed

[WindsorCC]

The other thing to bear in mind if there are more races (and this may be behind the current nine races...) is that if there are any more than nine, and it's still best of five, there's scope for a tie for first in Prem.

I'm sure that's not insurmountable, there would just need to be a rule defining what to do in the event of a tie.

The other question I'd ask is currently, how many Prem paddlers race all nine events, and would want the opportunity to do more?

[JimW]

Newsflash - most racing paddlers either don't read this forum, or read but don't post because they think it is more for officials/committee/parents than for them.

There is clearly a need to engage more with racers to find out stuff like:
- Are they happy about the PU situation?
- Are they happy paying enhanced fees for premium venues (and which ones?)?
- Are they able to enter the number of races they want to, and is it the full 9 or 10, or fewer?
- Other?

How can this be done, and by whom?

[paddlingfish]

No one is happy with paddle ups, It's just an excuse to allow people in lower divisions to enter higher divisions when the points system was fine the way it is. This system was created by the brainchild of a coach with very little experience outside of a academic reading, I know who pushed for this point system and paddle ups to be introduced and I know why they did it. To be honest slalom and British canoeing need to sort their sport out they don't know how to run it in the first place otherwise this paddle up system would only have been tested on small populations first I.e. Div 4 to 3 or 3 to 2 it would never have left the drawing board had it not been backed by parents of paddlers eager for their child to get into an elite division where they might just as simply be demoted next season when all
The cards unfold and it shows they were never ready for that standard of competition. But I assure you no one likes the paddle up system and it should be removed and that be the end of it. No other sporting organisation in any other sport that I am aware of would ever consider letting lower division athletes compete in the elite division nor would they allow the home division to be denied priority over a division that shouldn't be competing in that class anyway. It affects everything and shows a falsity in the ranking system as points carry on from division therefore someone being promoted to perm from div 1 can appear in the top 40% ranking of that division when in fact they may only be in reality in the 85% range and thus the ranking system becomes inept... how this passed the board is beyond me and I have studied sports academically for a very long time and I can only say that this is a shocking decision to have such a crippling system inplace that creates falicties amongst the ranking system.

[Sven]

Have to say - while I wouldn't couch the text in quite the same way as paddlingfish it is a pretty accurate description of the feeling amongst certainly the older paddler regarding paddle ups

But again the paddlers feel they are rarely listened to so feel there is no point in saying anything, they just try and make the best of things.

[Dee]

Have to say - while I wouldn't couch the text in quite the same way as paddlingfish it is a pretty accurate description of the feeling amongst certainly the older paddler regarding paddle ups. But again the paddlers feel they are rarely listened to so feel there is no point in saying anything, they just try and make the best of things.

No one is happy with paddle ups, It's just an excuse to allow people in lower divisions to enter higher divisions when the points system was fine the way it is. .......

Sorry, but no-one can really speak for everyone, and whilst you may well be right about the feeling amongst your peers, there are almost certainly some groups that you don't talk to (or if you do they don't like to get into conflict and just express verbal agreement).

Everyone involved in the organisation and running of the sport is a volunteer; I'm pretty sure within certain limitations (time and cash) the majority will be trying to do things that make the sport better for all. They might not always get it right, but I'm pretty sure that they do try. There will of course be times when it suits some paddlers more than others.

Like most organisations there are ways to make your opinions known:

Did your club send a representative to the ACM?
If so did you talk to the representative about your opinions before hand?
If not why not?
If no-one likes the system then discuss with the club committee the possibility of putting forward a motion to abolish/change paddle-up?
There is a specific paddlers' representative on the committee who tries hard to listen to paddlers and put their point of view as far a collective view point can be established. Did you try talking to him before the motion was passed.


PS I have no axe to grind either way with paddle-ups, was a bit of a pain to incorporate into online entries, but would be easy to switch off again. No, I'm not a paddler.

[andy n]

Newsflash - most racing paddlers either don't read this forum, or read but don't post because they think it is more for officials/committee/parents than for them.

There is clearly a need to engage more with racers to find out stuff like:
- Are they happy about the PU situation?
- Are they happy paying enhanced fees for premium venues (and which ones?)?
- Are they able to enter the number of races they want to, and is it the full 9 or 10, or fewer?
- Other?

How can this be done, and by whom?

At the recent Sprint Regatta there was an opportunity for people to look at and feedback on the focus areas that will make up the sprint racing plan for the next four years,  https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/news ... t-regatta/

Perhaps the Slalom Committee could create similar opportunities to consult with paddlers/parents/officials/volunteers etc. and share their thoughts on the 4-year slalom plan?

[Arrowcraft]

Dee. It's not enough to say that we need to follow the democratic process and overturn this nonsense...That's just committee bullshoot, used by committees the world over to justify their poor decisions. This was pushed through. It was a dumb idea and it is now proving to be a dumb practice. The committee should recognise this and sort it out....Not in October. call and EGM and resolve it in May.

In all honesty, paddle up might work in divs 4 - 1. But Prem is special, it is our elite arena and right now it's a joke. Prem paddlers need to be allowed to race at the limited races available. There are around 10 div 1 weekends, most are double races...and 9 Prems....Would anyone disagree that 20 prem paddlers on a waiting list for a prem race full of div 1's is just wrong.

Prem should be a fixed number of racers. 1 in 1 out at the end of the season...Keep it elite and keep it competitive.

The problem is all the paddlers are getting to div 1 and nobody is getting demoted...maybe we need to tackle the divisional structure, race allocation and how paddlers move up and down the divisions. If 30 people get from 3 to 2 in a year, then drop the bottom 30 in 2 back into 3 at the end of the season and balance out the divisions every year.

[Arrowcraft]

The bib officer has the email address of every prem paddler. Why not email them and ask them if they think Palddle ups should be allowed to enter prem races? Should prems be pushed out of race slots and let div 1's race in prem instead. Word it how you want to. Ask the question and you will have the facts by the weekend.

[Seedy Paddler]

Whilst I totally understand the frustration of refused entries I think some of the discussion is unhealthy and wrong. However there are a few issues with McConkey that should be taken further and raised at ACM.

1/ We do need to review the Priority and Entry regulations. Priority dates are established in a section on Enhanced Promotion UKB3.3 - why would any Prem Paddler be reading or even checking on enhanced promotion? The real rules on Entries are detailed in UK C11. This is the date that should take priority, so if there is a demand for Paddle Up and they want early confirmation of entry then all Entry Dates must be set to the same period. But beware it may mean you run foul of late entry fees.
2/ UKC11.1, clearly states that an entry in incompetent if not submitted correctly or lacks sufficient funds for Entry Fee. It needs to be stipulated that an Organiser cannot refuse a competent entry submitted in due time whilst accepting entries with insufficient payment. NB There are 3 race entries on the McConkey start list with insufficient entry fees whilst several legitimate entries are being refused. This isn't a rule change but an enforcement of existing rules.
3/ We experienced similar issues in 2016 at HPP combined Prem/Div 1 races. Most paddlers prefer double events and look to make the expense of travelling and competing more effective. Given the significant numbers not able to race in their division. Perhaps there is a requirement that events should either be double Div 1 or double Prem. Or as with British Open if raced over 2 days then enhanced entry fees are required to cover costs.

We cannot state that Paddle Ups should not be allowed as they dilute Premier competition when in most cases and classes on the events run to date it is not PU in last position, indeed at every race to date a PU has been close to or beaten 50% of the Prem Ranked paddlers. Clear evidence if needed that there is a need to demote greater numbers from Prem if we want an elite division.

To state that no-one wants Paddle Ups flies in the face of popular opinion, look at the numbers already on waiting lists for future Prem races and they make up circa 25-35% of the Entry most with > 100 days to race day. Paddlers want to race as often as possible and if Paddle Up provides that opportunity it will be retained for the benefit of the masses at the expense of the elite. I suspect that it is here to stay. So rather than rant and sound off we should look at how it may be managed for future.

In my view only about the top 10% in the Paddle Up divisions have any real prospect of "Enhanced Promotion" through a Paddle Up. Have a look at the Ranking Lists before you decry that notion and note how many below the top 10% are actually scoring points that would lead to promotion in their home division. So We reword UKB3.3, 4 weeks prior to the race Organisers may accept Paddle Up entries that are ranked within the top 10% of their home divisional class, at the start of season it will be based on Bib #, but once races have commenced it is by the Ranking List published at the time. Organiser is then obliged to continue to accept competent Entries from Host division paddlers up to the point Entry Quota is full or Entry Date as defined in UK C11.2. At Entry Closing Date, Organiser then has the discretion to fill the Race to Entry Quota with incompetent entries or Paddle Ups that wish to enter. Thereby only Late Entrants may not receive a race entry to their own division, if you cannot enter in time you can hardly be classed as Elite. Suitable candidates are permitted to progress for enhanced promotion, thus swelling the upper division with competitors of similar or equal standing to many already ranked. Organisers are able to ensure that they can open entries and run events that more than cover costs and effort involved.

BC Slalom Committee and Ranking Officers perhaps need to review and establish appropriate numbers. If we want an elite competition, what size in each class? This should be established in advance and applied at end of season. EG Should we state that max Size for Prem K1M to start 2018 season will be 75. There will be some natural wastage, already 12% have still to race albeit that includes Team GB paddlers, we have seen 4 promotees and I would anticipate that by season end we will be running with Bib 100. So the target will be to be ranked above #75 rather than achieve 2000 points for safety. Perhaps that should be a separate thread leading to some recommendations prior to ACM.

There should also be a clear statement that Paddle Ups racing in a promoted Division do so at their own risk, the water, course moves and safety cover should be established relative to the Host division. All competitors are separated by the same time definition and all competitors are required to be able to self rescue and assist with rescue either on conclusion or during their run if required.

I share the frustration, I could not submit entry as with a NP and Selection the Ranking lists were not updated until after the Priority deadline, without that we could not utilise the on-line system as it would only place us into the Div 1 PU waiting lists, I did email the organiser at the competition email address but it went unheeded and the postal entry did not arrive until after the Priority Date.

Craig Douglas (for those that don't know)