Novice Entry Clerk Requires Expert Advice

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
Patrick O'Hara
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Location: Bedford

Novice Entry Clerk Requires Expert Advice

Post by Patrick O'Hara » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:34 am

Sorry this is neither a rant or a rave, just a cry for help which I was unsure where else I could post. I'm processing the entries for the Div 2/3/4 Cardington slalom which is not using online entry. As a Div 1 slalom Dad I do seem to learn something new about the rules at every event we go to but when I took on the Cardington entries I was fairly sure I knew enough to make a good job of it, I'm now beginning to wonder. The more entries I receive, the more interpretations of the rules I see and things I thought of as facts are now raising questions. My electronic copy of the Slalom Rules is virtually well thumbed but the answers are not always clear. Please can someone provide answers/confirm the following:

1. Multi class discounts - Where a double event is entered in two classes how many MCDs are deducted, once for the weekend (£3) or once for each day (£6). I have assumed once for the weekend but have received entries that apply it never (this is the most common), once for the weekend, once per day.

2. Card Information - I can see nothing in the rules that tells me what information is mandatory on the entry card and the entries I've received omit various things at random, if these things are not required I do not want to spend time chasing people for them or dealing with RTCs. Are any of the below mandatory?
# CE/SCA/CW/CANI No. - As I have no way of checking this is correct I can see no point in it and assume it can be omitted.
# Address - Interesting but has no purpose as I have no intention of sending anyone a letter
# Postcode - As above although I have used it for https://batchgeo.com/map/87d80a55d661bb ... 1b609c9be4
# E-mail - Really useful for sorting out problems with the entry, but not mandatory to run the even and often unreadable as the space provided is far to small. In general the more problems with the entry the less likely it is to include a readable email address.

3. Entering a New Class - My understanding is that a paddler ranked in one class who wants to enter a second class, that they are not ranked in, must enter in the division below the one in which they are ranked e.g. a Div 2 K1 ranked paddler who is not ranked in C1 must enter Div 3 C1 not Div 4, please confirm. Assuming this is the case, does the paddler need to have applied for a bib in the previously unranked class? Can I let the Div 2 K1 ranked paddler race in Div 3 C1 with a temporary bib?

I'm sure this won't be the end of my questions over the next 10 days but would be great to get an answer to these as a start.

Patrick

djberriman
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Re: Novice Entry Clerk Requires Expert Advice

Post by djberriman » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:40 am

Well done on volunteering, don't expect to have any hair left by the end, it gets easier!

Can't claim to be an expert but here is my advice.

1. The discount for MCD is off the total fee, thus for a single it is £3 and for a double it is £3, not £6. £3 applied for each additional class and only one paddler gets it for a C2.

It looks like someone has removed a page between the entry fees page and the postcodes page without moving the clarification on that page to the entry fees page.

Many people get MCD wrong so do not be suprised. We always give (where not claimed), refund (where overpaid) and ask for the extra (were underpaid) and hope to educate.

2. Address/postcode - not really needed any more except for Div 4's. But I guess it is your only point of contact after an event or if there was an emergency. Must have for Div 4.

3. BCU no is mandatory.

4. Email, yes it is hard, wish people would just write it across the card rather than in the box, very useful if you have to cancel an event etc.

Paddlers should apply for a bib BEFORE racing either in their division or a new division, but many don't so a temporary bib is fine, however their points will be withheld until they apply for a bib.

B 2.3 covers (oddly called changing event?) covers entering in an un ranked class and yes it is in the division below (except for C2 with an unranked paddler in which case 4).

Dee
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Re: Novice Entry Clerk Requires Expert Advice

Post by Dee » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:54 am

1) MCD is complex but agree with Duncan. Examples based on my understanding
  • John enters K1 and C1 Sat only MCD =£3
  • John enters K1 both days and C1 Sat only MCD=£3
  • John enters K1 and C1 both days MCD = £3
  • John enters K1 Sat and C1 Sun - No MCD, Entry fees are 2xsingle entry
  • John and Jane enter K1 on Saturday and C2 on Sat- MCD = £3
  • John and Jane enter K1 on Saturday and C2 on Sun - no MCD, Entry fees 3xsingle entry
  • John and Jane both enter K1 both days and C2 both days -MCD £3
  • John enters C1 and K1, Jane enters K1 and they both enter C2 (all double entries) - MCD = £6
  • John and Jane both enter C1, K1 and C2 together (all double) - MCD £9
  • john and Jane enter K1 and C1 on Sat and K1 and C2 on Sun - MCD £9 (entry fees 2xdouble and 3xsingle)
Note that MCD only applies to div 2 and below and will not apply to a div 2 paddling up to div 1, though fortunately this won't affect you!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Dee
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Re: Novice Entry Clerk Requires Expert Advice

Post by Dee » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:04 am

2). Card information

Agreeing with Duncan with additional bits.

Strictly speaking if the card is not fully completed then it is invalid. ( C11)

Key things that you really need to treat as mandatory are
Name
Class and division
Bc number
Signature (lots forget this in my experience!)
Year of birth for anyone claiming to be junior, u23 or M
Address for div 4s

Email can be useful pre event and in the event of cancellation so if it isn't on the entry then no real point in chasing for it in the day
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

jke
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Re: Novice Entry Clerk Requires Expert Advice

Post by jke » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:45 pm

One observation, from an organiser with online entry, do you actually need BC no. Signature, Address etc. for divs 2 and 3. Well those who have a bib.
John Kent

Dee
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Re: Novice Entry Clerk Requires Expert Advice

Post by Dee » Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:25 pm

jke wrote:One observation, from an organiser with online entry, do you actually need BC no. Signature, Address etc. for divs 2 and 3. Well those who have a bib.
  • At the time of entry an online "signature" (ticking the box) is required, which is how we get around the signature bit. (We do record the ticking of the box, we just don't bother displaying to the organiser)
  • A useable email address is, as you know, required to logon and enter a race and the organiser gets access to this.
  • Year of birth is generally required to confirm that paddler hasn't misunderstood how to calculate their age category - online the age category is taken from the ranking database, so we only require it when organiser is entering an non-ranked, postal entry.
  • BC Number has to be supplied at the time of bib application as does address etc so that is already recorded elsewhere. We don't currently store it on the entry system. However, if a paddler turns up without their bib, I always require proof of bc membership and record their number when handing out the loan bib. This can be a hassle (and I do get moans), but is the only way I can think of to get around it.
BC membership is really a tricky one - no-one can validate the number entered on the card, so as long as the paddler turns up with a bib this is probably the key thing.
There is an option to record bc membership number on the ranking database, and where this is populated we could pull it into the entry system, but it is not always populated and I'm not convinced of any advantages

However, the current system (manual and online) means that bib holders only need to show that the membership is valid at the start of the year (in theory they should re-submit copy of card when renewed, but I suspect this is rare). If it expires part way through the season, then organisers have no way of knowing. There is an argument that expiry dates should be recorded on the ranking database and that we should highlight the paddlers to organisers so that they can check current validity, but I think this would require changes to the rules as well as the systems.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

djberriman
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Re: Novice Entry Clerk Requires Expert Advice

Post by djberriman » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:04 pm

Bib officers do from time to time check bcu numbers and chase when proof of renewal is not provided during the season.

At some point all bcu numbers will be recorded in the database and regularly checked.

JimW
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Re: Novice Entry Clerk Requires Expert Advice

Post by JimW » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:08 pm

I don't have time to look up but there are rules about correct entries, and we are supposed to reject any that aren't complete, but that would be almost all of them.

BCU/SCA/WCA/CANI number is a mandatory requirement - I don't understand it either for competitors with bibs, but it is explicitly mentioned in the rules.

Signature is a mandatory requirement because it acknowledges acceptance of the waiver statement, for online entries you tick a box for this, which replaces the signature for online.

So everything else is really down to organiser discretion, and I would expect to see cards filled out better at div 2 than div 4, which said I recently received a card with nothing more than a bib number, division (2) and date on it, fortunately I also received an email from the mum saying she thought she may have forgotten to put the cheque in - I have therefore been able to fill in the missing details other than the signature which we will get at control. I know some organisers with large entries would be much stricter on this, but at present I have very few entries to process and I'm being as accommodating as possible (this case was why I ended up scrutinising exactly which bits of info we need).

In this day and age email address is really useful, I am unlikely to write a letter to a competitor for something minor, especially close to the race but I might email them about it, I get a lot of cards with no email.

Multi Class Discount
A double entry fee already includes a discount compared to 2 single entry fees, so if entering 2 classes on 2 days, you only get one MCD because you are already getting the second day discounted. I'm sure when I worked this out last year paying 4 x single entries and 2 x MCD would have cost exactly the same as 2 x double entry and 1 x MCD. When competitors are in different divisions in each class you end up with some odd totals for some of them!

If you aren't sure about an entry for a second class, consider asking the ranking officer, John Woods, just in case he has given dispensation to enter 2 divisions below or something?

And a tip, if no-one has already told you - when you open envelopes, write the bib number, class, gender, and division of all paddlers included on the back of the cheque (I write the entry fees too and add them up and include MCD). That way if a paddler pulls out (promoted or injured - you will be back asking about cancellations eventually!) who has different surname to the parent/guardian whose chequebook was used, you have a chance of identifying the right cheque, assuming you are not in the school of banking all cheques immediately, in which case you will need to issue a refund.

jke
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Re: Novice Entry Clerk Requires Expert Advice

Post by jke » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:01 pm

JimW wrote:... there are rules about correct entries, and we are supposed to reject any that aren't complete ...

BCU/SCA/WCA/CANI number is a mandatory requirement - I don't understand it either for competitors with bibs, but it is explicitly mentioned in the rules.

Signature is a mandatory requirement because it acknowledges acceptance of the waiver statement, for online entries you tick a box for this, which replaces the signature for online.
Jim you're talking from the point of view of postal entries. I have online entries so I end up with a load of div 3 cards where I have populated the backs and left the fronts blank. For the event I have no need for the front details.

Regarding membership, this is about insurance. I accept that there is a grey area with currency. I wonder what the coroner's ruling would be when we have taken reasonable steps to ensure members only ie. checked at start of season, but at the time of the incident the paddler was not current.

Also, the relevance of a signature. Legally does a signature make the slightest difference. Doesn't it all come back to us acting with due care and conforming to the safety plan?
John Kent

JimW
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Re: Novice Entry Clerk Requires Expert Advice

Post by JimW » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:54 pm

jke wrote:Jim you're talking from the point of view of postal entries.
Yes I was.
jke wrote:I have online entries so I end up with a load of div 3 cards where I have populated the backs and left the fronts blank. For the event I have no need for the front details.
I beleive that is the case, others have been extolling this exact virtue of online entry ;)
jke wrote:Regarding membership, this is about insurance. I accept that there is a grey area with currency. I wonder what the coroner's ruling would be when we have taken reasonable steps to ensure members only ie. checked at start of season, but at the time of the incident the paddler was not current.
Not so clear cut. Is it a condition of the insurance for the event (which protects competitors and third parties against things that are the orgnaisers fault) that the individual paddlers have insurance cover, or do we do it to ensure that competitors are also covered for an incident that is their fault and causes injury to another competitor or a third party?
I prefer to think of insurance as protecting the interests of the injured party rather than the covered party.
Are we actually just checking membership numbers because BC likes competitors to be full members?
jke wrote:Also, the relevance of a signature. Legally does a signature make the slightest difference. Doesn't it all come back to us acting with due care and conforming to the safety plan?
The signature/tickbox is not a contract not to sue.
It is an acknowledgement that the competitor is taking part in an "assumed risk" Water contact sport".
As far as I can tell, what this means is that if a competitor is injured and needs to make a claim for damages, they cannot try to bolster their case by making out that they were not aware that there would be risks, or water contact, because they have signed or ticked an acknowledgement to that effect. Presumably this can have a significant effect on liklihood of successful claims or amount of damages awarded?
We still need to act with due care and follow our safety plan.

We have got a bit away from Patrick's questions, but I think these are points worth discussing, unfortunatley nne of us really knows exactly what arrangements BC have made with the insurers, so at best we can make educated guesses.

djberriman
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Re: Novice Entry Clerk Requires Expert Advice

Post by djberriman » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:16 pm

We used the online entry for Washburn div 2 I just put all the postal entries in to the online system (as 90% were online). That way everyone can see the entries are in. It saved a huge amount of work. To be honest other than the few postal entries which took about 10 secs each I had nothing to do.

I then used a csv from the online system (or it could be done from SS) and did a word mail merge and printed cards for all entries (3 per page A4 card) as only one side is needed, kept all the original postal entry cards for reference but that was all.

CeeBee
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Re: Novice Entry Clerk Requires Expert Advice

Post by CeeBee » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:07 pm

If we have a paddler racing say Div 3 K1 on Saturday who gets promoted so tries their hand at C1 on Sunday, we give the paddler the multi class discount. This equates roughly to the same as a double entry fee.

single double
Division 3 £8.25 £13.00
Division 4 £5.00 £8.00

So a Div 3 K1M single for Saturday = £8.25
a Div 3 C1M single for Sunday = £8.25 - £3 = £5.25

So £13.50 in total v a double entry of £13

You will also have to cope with promotions from Saturday to Sunday!

What we do is average the double entry fees so lets say someone does Div 4 Saturday and Div 3 Sunday we would charge

Div 4 double £8 + div 3 double £13 = £21/2 = £10.50

djberriman
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Re: Novice Entry Clerk Requires Expert Advice

Post by djberriman » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:54 pm

Basically do what you think is right and give BOD to paddler, as long as everyone goes away happy I wouldn't worry about it too much, especially if your first event. Saturday morning will be hell (especially if there are late entries), Sunday will be better.

Probably worth printing ranking lists just before the event, then you can check on Saturday if anyone has got promoted and not noticed. It will only be the top few in each division that need checking.

If you can take late entries Friday afternoon/night.

Patrick O'Hara
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Re: Novice Entry Clerk Requires Expert Advice

Post by Patrick O'Hara » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:06 pm

Thanks for all the helpful information and advice.

Patrick

Patrick O'Hara
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Location: Bedford

Re: Novice Entry Clerk Requires Expert Advice

Post by Patrick O'Hara » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:17 pm

An additional clarification on my questions above please.

For question 3 "Entering a New Class", if the K1 paddler now in Div 2 has previously raced in C1 Div 4 and not been promoted, can they continue to race in Div 4 until promoted based on performance or does the entering a new class rule override this as they have not been ranked in C1?

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