Boat Weights

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
Post Reply
Reformed Boy
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 4:36 pm

Boat Weights

Post by Reformed Boy » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:42 pm

I've never understood this.

Rules (ICF?) set minimum boat weights - why?

I did once believe that minimum boat weights were an attempt to ensure that there was sufficient structural strength to avoid a boat breaking up on the water, really?

If this is the case then there out to be many more rules about boat construction that are required as materials (types of), mode of construction, quality of construction and potential after-sale modifications all have a bigger impact of boat integrity than just the weight of the materials used.

It's probably possible to make a K1 boat at about 5kg (total guess) and then spread 4kg of resin on the inside to make the weight which of course would add nothing to boat strength.

So I can't see this as a reason that offers a sensible solution; maybe it's me being dim (most likely).

If it's an attempt to bring some 'weight equality' then it's even more of a total nonsense.

If that were the case then we'd have to have a handicapping system (a la horse racing).

At the end of the day there is so much variation in other kit & paddle weight etc and if you hydrate prior to a run you probably take on 300-500 g (otherwise you're not hydrating are you?).

Your kit can be bone dry or wet as well, so again this isn't really solving or controlling the major variations of weight.

At 100kg+, I'd love to see some form of 'levelling the playing field' (bad metaphor) in our sport but it isn't possible for our internal competition.

There's more to be gained in bring equality by being more 'controlling' on boat dimensions from Div 3 upwards and such like.

This is where someone replies with a killer reason about boat weights that I never knew... :lol:

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: Boat Weights

Post by JimW » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:24 pm

Not a killer reason, but a couple....

- Once upon a time it was about structural strength, but advances in construction method (vac bagging and sandwich construction are obvious ones) mean that boats are much stronger than they were 20 years ago. Note that the length changed too, which also helps make boats strong/stiff. I wasn't racing 20 years ago, but I had a carbon C1 of that vintage which must have been about 6kg new, the deck flexed like stiff paper!

- If you leave minimum boat weight open the richest top level paddlers (or those with the richest sponsors) will always be edging the competition by spending outrageous amounts on ever lighter/stronger boats (think about the price of F1 aero development) so it keeps things relatively affordable. It will make no difference in the lower levels where paddlers are not able to leverage the benefit of a few less grams, but when international competition results sometimes need 100ths to separate them...

- It would be hard to develop suitable structural rules - an open cured polyester chopped strand glass boat can be strong enough for all normal slalom bumps and scrapes, a vac bagged carbon/kevlar foam sandwich boat can still be smashed to pieces in an exceptionally unlucky broach, so where are you going to set the standard to meet? Then how are you going to verify that the standard has been met? Destructive testing and type approval? Every boat in every size? That will drive all the small manufacturers out of the picture.

- It is easy (and lazy?). There could be a handicap, or an all up weight, or a scale of boat weight proportional to paddler weight, but then organisers need to be able to weigh boats and paddlers and all their kit, possibly refer to table to find out if the weight is acceptable, monitor paddlers finishing their run on the way to get weighed to ensure they don't re-hydrate on the way. There is enough demand for volunteers without needing extra 'security' to keep coaches from passing drinks or other weights to paddlers before getting weighed.

As another 100kg+ paddler (102.4 this morning) I laugh at the minimum boat weights, no-one even made boats to fit me at 8kg, I doubt if any made them at 9kg, with some repairs my K1 is closer to 12kg (I forget my C1, around 10kg I think).

WindsorCC
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:22 pm

Re: Boat Weights

Post by WindsorCC » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:14 am

My understanding is that it's exclusively about keeping the sport affordable, and as Jim has said, avoiding the wealthiest paddlers gaining an advantage from super-light boats that are either disposable, or made of super-exotic materials. With no weight restriction I could imagine boats being down at sub 5kg, costing £5k each and only lasting for a race or two before they need repair, which then adds too much weight.

Appreciate that our sport isn't the cheapest, in particular with the travel, but actually you can be competitive at a pretty high level, for quite a few seasons, in a £800 second-hand boat.

Not unusual to have weight limits, as they are a good proxy for durability/safety, pro cycling has a 6.8kg (or something around that) weight limit for a complete bike. Even after fitting power meters etc most pro's bikes are under weight so they'll fit a heavy bottom bracket axle, or other weights low-down to make it up to the limit.

Reformed Boy
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 4:36 pm

Re: Boat Weights

Post by Reformed Boy » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:22 pm

But the UCI are in the early stages of re-considering their weight limits...
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/lates ... mit-203804

Any manufacturer that made boats too flimsey would soon lose out as we won't buy them.

I still believe this is a (historical) rule for rules sake.
Why don't we try an experiment?
Let's get some canoeists of various abilities on a range of courses and test out just how much difference a course time would be with (say) 1+kg, 2+kg sensibly loaded in a boat (not water).
If nothing else it might prove to be a valuable source of real data... or a new training regime!

WindsorCC
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:22 pm

Re: Boat Weights

Post by WindsorCC » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:55 am

I remember someone posting results of testing of on this forum, I'm sure someone will re-post the details, but I think it showed a noticeable advantage when comparing a lighter boat to a heavier boat (as you'd expect) and then a smaller advantage, when comparing two boats with the same overall weight, for the boat with the weight in the centre (so an underweight boat with weights added under the seat) over a boat with the weight distributed. Again, kind of as you'd expect.

If I remember rightly the advantages were small, but significant at international level (although saying that, I won a Shepperton Div 1 Vets race by 0.02 seconds earlier in the year...)

Reformed Boy
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 4:36 pm

Re: Boat Weights

Post by Reformed Boy » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:08 am

Don't start me off on the nonesense of timing in general and timing to 0.01s timing in our sport...

Mike Mitchell
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:44 pm

Re: Boat Weights

Post by Mike Mitchell » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:01 pm

Reformed Boy wrote:Don't start me off on the nonesense of timing in general and timing to 0.01s timing in our sport...

I am going to start you off.
Div 2 events this year. Easy courses and around 5 paddlers on every second of the result list.
No Boat Weights thank goodness. But push button start and finishers.

It would be good to have a timing beam at some of these races as paddlers are getting promoted on tenths of a second results.

BaldockBabe
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:55 am

Re: Boat Weights

Post by BaldockBabe » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:15 pm

Mike Mitchell wrote:
Reformed Boy wrote: It would be good to have a timing beam at some of these races as paddlers are getting promoted on tenths of a second results.
It takes a team of at least 9 people to run the timing system at P/1 events (could be done with a minimum of 5 volunteering full time during the day). There is a very small pool of very dedicated individuals that show up and take time out of their weekends to assist. There is an even smaller pool of individuals who are willing to learn the computer set up and outdoor set up and be at an event hours before and hours after to ensure the equipment is dealt with.

If we could increase this pool of people by 10x + perhaps it could be rolled out to the lower divisions... until then...

Oh, and we won't even go onto the cost of the kit...

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Boat Weights

Post by Dee » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:16 pm

But a beam does not necessitate the presence of the timing team. I know we use one at Shepperton for our events (other than the div 1 for which we have the A-team).

A beam in turn does not necessitate the level of kit that the timing team uses. Tutti, I believe, works based on someone pressing a button and thus sending a signal. I'm sure that someone with the technological know how could create the same signal based on a beam break and possibly even provide instructions for clubs to create their own start and finish gates to use with tutti.

However practicalities of timing aside, should div 2 races really be so closely contested? As we go down the divisions I would expect to see bigger gaps. Several paddlers within a second of each other at that level should surely be unusual or is that not the case?
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

BaldockBabe
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:55 am

Re: Boat Weights

Post by BaldockBabe » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:16 pm

Dee wrote: A beam in turn does not necessitate the level of kit that the timing team uses. ?
You mean I could get my garage back???!!!??? :D

Mike Mitchell
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:44 pm

Re: Boat Weights

Post by Mike Mitchell » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:23 pm

BaldockBabe wrote:
Mike Mitchell wrote:
Reformed Boy wrote: It would be good to have a timing beam at some of these races as paddlers are getting promoted on tenths of a second results.
It takes a team of at least 9 people to run the timing system at P/1 events (could be done with a minimum of 5 volunteering full time during the day). There is a very small pool of very dedicated individuals that show up and take time out of their weekends to assist. There is an even smaller pool of individuals who are willing to learn the computer set up and outdoor set up and be at an event hours before and hours after to ensure the equipment is dealt with.

If we could increase this pool of people by 10x + perhaps it could be rolled out to the lower divisions... until then...

Oh, and we won't even go onto the cost of the kit...
Howsham Wire
Day 1. 5th - 12th Place 100-103 secs
Day2. 4th-10th Place 94-96 secs
Llandysul
Day 1. 2nd-15th place 114-121 secs
Day 2. 4th-23rd place 109-117 secs. Thats something like 2.5 paddlers on every second.

Oh and we won't even go onto the cost of the Kit.
The kit is already there and could be used, [not at every event]. The paddlers pay there entry fees and travel to events just like the Div 1 and Prem.
We seam to have lots of Volunteers lining up to weigh boats and disqualify paddlers, so this probably won't be a problem.

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Boat Weights

Post by Dee » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:03 am

BaldockBabe wrote:
Dee wrote: A beam in turn does not necessitate the level of kit that the timing team uses. ?
You mean I could get my garage back???!!!??? :D
Not quite!

The cardless running, automated timing etc need all the kit, the beam part doesn't need all that. Anyway, if you get rid of it all then I'm sure he could find something else to fill the garage with. I don't think you would get a look in :P
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

BaldockBabe
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:55 am

Re: Boat Weights

Post by BaldockBabe » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:57 am

Mike Mitchell wrote:

Oh and we won't even go onto the cost of the Kit.
The kit is already there and could be used, [not at every event]. The paddlers pay there entry fees and travel to events just like the Div 1 and Prem.
We seam to have lots of Volunteers lining up to weigh boats and disqualify paddlers, so this probably won't be a problem.
Please tell me you are not being serious.

Post Reply