Rules around promotions and paddle up entries

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Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Rules around promotions and paddle up entries

Post by Dee » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:47 pm

A div 1 paddler enters a prem race as a paddle up and is then promoted:

Suppose they are on the waiting list
a) should their original entry date be used when calculating their position on the waiting list
Or
b) should the paddler be required to put a new host entry in with a new entry date (and scrap the previous entry

Notes:
- if the event is not full the end result will be the same
- if the new host entry is before the priority deadline then it will probably not make a huge difference even if race is full
- only if the new host entry would be after the priority deadline and the original entry is before will it make a difference as the paddler will then jump the queue above all the paddle ups
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

BaldockBabe
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:55 am

Re: Rules around promotions and paddle up entries

Post by BaldockBabe » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:51 am

My view is that the promoted paddler should take priority over paddle ups as it is now their host event (regardless of whether or not they put in a paddle up entry). Thus my vote is with (a) in the scenario you envisage.

harratts
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 3:51 pm

Re: Rules around promotions and paddle up entries

Post by harratts » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:02 am

I also agree with Baldockbabe.

When promoted, a paddlers entry (made on whatever date it was submitted) should be considered as being a host division entry. This should apply to Officials entries as well as Paddle Up entries in my opinion.

Otherwise when you get promoted out of Division 2 your season is pretty much over.
Steve

Dee
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Rules around promotions and paddle up entries

Post by Dee » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:26 pm

Thanks both.

As the rules stand host entries only take priority up to four weeks before. By allowing paddlers to "convert" paddle up entries to host entries then this could at least improve the situation for promotees by using their original entry date.
I am wondering whether to code this ability to convert into the online system.
However, it is not in the rules; but then neither is there anything to contradict this approach and, in practice, I think that most (not all) organisers are already operating this way.

There is a fair bit of pressure to try and improve the handling of promotions on the online entry system, and this is probably the most common scenario.

My biggest concern is that, if I go down this route then I can also envisage someone "accusing" me of making up the rules without recourse to the ACM.

Does anyone disagree with the approach - or have you heard anyone else disagree - feel free to message/email me if you don't want to go public.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

CeeBee
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:12 pm
Location: Falkirk

Re: Rules around promotions and paddle up entries

Post by CeeBee » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:07 pm

As per the last slalom minutes,

5.9 Processing Wait Lists for Oversubscribed Races
A guidance note will be issued regarding processing of those on the waiting list. Where people withdraw from an event, places will be offered to those on the waiting list in the order of host division, by order of receipt, then paddle up in order of receipt.

So if you are promoted, I think you should jump to the host division waiting list but the bottom of the list.

There is already a waiting list of 27 prem paddlers for the Tryweryn prem races. There are bound to be promotions from the Div1s on the list.

Should the entry limit be defined so it only applies to host and paddle ups with official entry limit for officials defined separately?

Dee
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Rules around promotions and paddle up entries

Post by Dee » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:49 am

So sort of treating 'date of promotion' as 'date of entry'. Nice idea this and does make sense, though I'm not sure you can derive this from the quote. At the moment I don't have a date of promotion either :(. Question then becomes should it be date of last comp contributing to promotion, date bib application received, date the paddler says they would like to convert ........ .

I really hope that someone puts a proposal to the ACM as I really can't do anything with this without clear rules other than write something that gives organisers a complicated list of options which just passes the buck. I think I will have to just cross my fingers and hope that unambiguous agreement comes out of ACM #unintendedConsequenceOfPaddleUp

Re the limits. Some competitions have to include officials in the overall limit as they really do have a finite number of places. Other competitions do not include officials in the limit. The online system allows organiser to decide. There is also the option to separately limit the number of officials entries. This has always been the organisers call, both pre and post online entries, but I think that online entries may have made it more visible at the same time as paddle-up made it more significant.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

CeeBee
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:12 pm
Location: Falkirk

Re: Rules around promotions and paddle up entries

Post by CeeBee » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:19 pm

Agreed. Always difficult when you start trying to write code to specify what to do in specific circumstances.

So, there are 2 dates

[Promotion date] Date of the race you were promoted at.
[Promotion notification date] Date the paddler goes into the online entry and changes it from Paddle Up to Host division entry.

So Given that the online system is not yet telepathic, the date of entry for someone who has entered as a paddle up but subsequently gets promoted to the host division is the 'promotion notification date'.

The waiting list then gets updated on the promotion notification date so we have one consistent date.

Do you dream or have nightmares about the online system .............

Re entries, I think there needs to be consistency across races so there is a ranking limit and officials limit.

Some more motions for the AGM

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Rules around promotions and paddle up entries

Post by Dee » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:05 pm

The problem I have there is that promotion notification date will depend on when the bib officer updates the db as until that point the paddler won't be able to request the change.....

I think we could base it on the last of the lower division events at which they competed before being promoted - I think we could retrieve this from the ranking system (not 100% certain) - The problem with doing this is that if the paddler is promoted after the 4 week priority deadline then, based on the current sorting rules, they would end up further down the list than they were before, and, if it's after the two week deadline they could end up with late entry fees to boot!

Whatever we do, we need a rule.

It will never please everyone but it does need to be crystal clear and preferably not too complex so that everyone knows where they stand.



PS When it comes to promotions "nightmares". I have received a certain amount of stick over this as a tiny minority seem to blame online entry for issues that are more related to the handling of div 1 paddleups at prem races. Fortunately far outweighed by those that have been encouraging and positive, so I'm not really worried even though I would like to please everyone!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

lesf
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Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 5:15 pm

Re: Rules around promotions and paddle up entries

Post by lesf » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:30 am

On a similar note, I have had a PU entry from someone who hadn't at the time got promoted into the division below the host division! I put him in as an official and when he was promoted moved him to a PU entry, but dated for the date I noticed he had been promoted (the paddler hasn't let me know that they have been promoted).

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Rules around promotions and paddle up entries

Post by Dee » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:43 pm

:lol: :lol:
That sounds like someone who hadn't understood paddle-ups or thought they were in a different division. I'm aware of at least one paddler cancelling an entry because they thought they'd been promoted out of the division and then requesting re-instatement because they hadn't. Our rules are too complicated - no-one understands them (except perhaps Canadian Paddler)


Another QI fact - at least 51 paddlers have mistyped their email address when logging on to canoeslalomentries (one of them was me :oops: )
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Mike Mitchell
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Re: Rules around promotions and paddle up entries

Post by Mike Mitchell » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:08 pm

I would propose one easy rule.

If you get promoted you are guaranteed an entry at every race that year provided you enter in say 2 weeks.
You keep the same Bib so your new Number becomes something like 11P [ If you old division bib was 11]

Its takes a week to get a new Bib at least, and you don't need to send your BCU card again because you have already done it.
If you got promoted at Llandysul this year 4 weeks before Washburn then by time you got your bib of the paddle ups were on the list. Saying that I think everyone did get an entry.


The system worked in 1974 when I got promoted from Div2 at Builth Slalom and then raced at Serpents Tail1 the following weekend and there wasn't a computer then to notify the organiser.

So some organisers are just going to need to keep a number of spaces for promoted paddlers.

You can call it reward for getting promoted, better than giving the entry to an old timer like me.

harratts
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 3:51 pm

Re: Rules around promotions and paddle up entries

Post by harratts » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:44 am

I am currently experiencing the issue that Mike has outlined. My daughter got promoted from Div. 2 K1 Ladies last weekend in Bala and has yet to be advised what her new Div. 1 Bib No. will be.

Although we have sent e-mails to the Bib Officer (as it is suggested we do on the front page of Canoe Slalom) and sent off her old Bib with all of the additional information / documentation required, we are still waiting to have anything back. I think that they are on holiday which everyone is entitled to have.

Without the new Bib. No. being issued, the database cannot be updated, so you can't enter anything that has on on-line entry requirement, then if the paddle-up deadline of 4-weeks prior to the event passes you end up unable to do so as the event is already full by the time the system becomes updated.

Not such a problem before on-line came in as you could send off your entry card with payment filling it in saying 'promoted at Bala' instead of having to have your new divisional Bib No.

The on-line system is great Dee but this is one area that could currently creates added difficulties and frustrations especially for Div. 1 events. Could Mike's suggestion of old Bib No. plus P be coded in?

Steve

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Rules around promotions and paddle up entries

Post by Dee » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:43 am

There is a tendency to 'blame' online Entries for these issues, but they are really caused by the 4 week priority deadline and paddle ups. What online entry has done is increase visibility as you now get to see the waiting list!

However, I am looking at what we can do for promoted paddle ups and this could well help resolve this as you would be able to enter as a paddle up now and then convert your entry to host when bib detail com through. However, I need a rule change at the ACM to allow conversions as I really can't invent rules even though there is clearly a need.

I have recently added information to the organisers pages that gives the date of promotion on paddle up entries but this currently won't show up until new bib has been released and it is up to organisers what they choose to do with the info.


Important Note. Online entry is not a requirement! Organisers (and paddlers) do seem to prefer it, but they must give equal priority to card and cheque entries, so you can still use traditional postal entry. Some organisers will also hold a place if you are waiting fo a bib after promotion instead.


In your particular case:
  • The 4week deadline for Tully has already been reached but there are still places, so still a good chance of getting an entry.
  • If you are looking at HPP then I'd probably contact the organiser and/or send a postal entry. However, there is already a waiting list for Sunday of other div 1 paddlers with only a handful of div 2 paddle up Entries on the waiting list, so the difference in likelihood of a race is not massive (the chances of your daughter getting a paddle up entry on Saturday is negligible at this stage).
  • Llandysul opened to paddleups early because of the championship element and already has a long waiting list of div 1 and div 2 paddlers.
  • October HPP is already full with a waiting list of div 1 paddlers so not likely to be a massive difference either way.
It's not looking good :( Don't give up hope though as there have been large numbers of cancellations at some races!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

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