The Mysterious Workings of Pan-Celtics

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

The Mysterious Workings of Pan-Celtics

Post by Dee » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:05 pm

I'm currently looking at what we can do for Pan-Celtic online entries.

My next three posts cover:
  • My Understanding of how they have worked to-date
  • My proposed solution (at the moment!)
  • An alternative approach I've considered
I'd like feed back on
  • Whether my understanding is correct and reasonably complete
  • Whether (those involved) think my proposed solution will work for them
  • Whether anyone has some alternative approaches
Note: I'm not covering championships here - that will come later!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: The Mysterious Workings of Pan-Celtics

Post by Dee » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:06 pm

My understanding so far:
  • The Pan-Celtics are a series of six competitions between the three home nations that make up Great Britain (ie England, Wales and Scotland)
  • Pan-Celtic competitions are held alongside ranking races of different divisions (2 in each nation)
  • Pan-Celtic teams are selected by national team managers
  • Paddlers are supposed to mark their postal entry cards with their nation (though many don’t)
  • The team managers provide a list of their teams to the organiser to cross reference.
  • On the start list the home nation is normally added after the club name
  • The team may vary for each race (depending on paddler availability). (Question: is there a specified number of paddlers per team?)
  • Team members do not necessarily have to be eligible for the competition ranking events to compete as part of the pan-Celtic team (so a div 2 could be paddling at a Prem and vice-versa)
  • Team members who enter as non-ranking paddlers (and will not receive ranking points) have their entry fees paid by the home nation (via the team manager).
  • Team members entering as non-ranking paddlers have the same entry priority as host paddlers.
  • Paddle-ups that enter as team members may receive a pan-celtic place (because of host-level priority), but will only get paddle-up points if their position on the waiting list would have entitled them to a paddle-up place even if they were not on the team.
Some Assumptions:
  • We do need to find a way of managing these online
  • Payment for national teams will continue to be outside of the system
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: The Mysterious Workings of Pan-Celtics

Post by Dee » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:06 pm

Proposed Approach:
This predominately gives online control and management of the teams at competitions to the team managers:
  • Team managers are given access to pages to electronically identify their teams
  • The team can be set up and added to by the team managers at any point in the year
  • For each Pan Celtic competition the managers can select the competition team from the annual team
  • The page will identify those that have already entered as a competitor (and whether they are on the waiting list) to make it easier for the managers to make their selection.
The system will automatically:
  • Flag entries that are part of the pan-celtic team
  • Allocate non-ranking pan-Celtic places to any members of the competition team that have not obtained another place
  • Reduce the allocation when a paddler takes (and pays for) a ranking place
Pros:
  • It removes the issue of paddlers forgetting to mark their entries with their nation
  • It means that organisers no longer need to manually check those who have entered as pan-celtic against the lists from the team managers
  • The team managers could have access to add the pan-Celtic team to the competition before the competition is open for entries, so guaranteeing places.
  • The team managers can update the list without needing to resend to the organiser (the organiser could have view access on line).
  • Paddlers only enter themselves if they want ranking points
  • Treating pan-celtic as a distinct type/method of entry is probably easier from a coding and maintenance point of view and I think will make it easier to incorporate into startlists (which I’ll handle later).
Cons:
  • It is up to the team managers to ensure that the team is “entered” before the competition is full.
  • Where a pan-Celtic entry is top of the waiting list then organiser needs to be aware that they can be given a ranking place as this will wipe out the pre-allocated non-ranking place (this shouldn't be a huge issue).
  • The pan-Celtic entry won’t show up on the “My-Entries” page (though I might be able to make this happen if the team managers add email addresses to the team members.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: The Mysterious Workings of Pan-Celtics

Post by Dee » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:07 pm

Alternative Approach
An alternative approach I have looked at is to create a “Restricted Open”. This wouldn’t actually be restricted but would warn paddlers that it is not really an open.
The downsides to this approach are that:
  • Organisers would still need to cross check against team lists.
  • Prospective paddle-ups would need to do two entries, one as a paddle up and one as a pan-celtic, and then delete the pan-Celtic if they get a paddle-up. I might be able to automate the deletion part but I think the need for a double entry could cause issues
  • Paddlers will continue to forget to add their pan-Celtic information, not all will all the time but there will always be some.
  • Some paddlers will have entered before being selected for the team, so we will continue to need manual communication so that the Organiser can update the information (this does not apply above where this will be automated).
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: The Mysterious Workings of Pan-Celtics

Post by JimW » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:27 pm

From what I have learned about the way PC works in practice, I think the proposed approach where the team managers identify the paddlers to be included in the team is probably going to be favourite.

Had you picked up on the way that the top 3 paddlers in each age group make up the team, and where there are less than 3 available in an age group spare paddlers from other age groups can be substituted (with some restrictions, like no under 35's can substitute as vets)? You might need to add a facility for team managers to override a paddlers age group for PC, but if they are also ranking they will need their ordinary age group too... Oh yeah, all over 35's are counted as vets for PC but some will normally be M or S in the ranking lists. I think a separate field for PC age group would make sense?

Elaine circulates the team list spreadsheet from time to time for us to check that she has us entered for the right events, I'm sure if online entries could be used to manage the list instead it would help the team managers!

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: The Mysterious Workings of Pan-Celtics

Post by Dee » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:12 am

JimW wrote:From what I have learned about the way PC works in practice, I think the proposed approach where the team managers identify the paddlers to be included in the team is probably going to be favourite.

Had you picked up on the way that the top 3 paddlers in each age group make up the team, and where there are less than 3 available in an age group spare paddlers from other age groups can be substituted (with some restrictions, like no under 35's can substitute as vets)? You might need to add a facility for team managers to override a paddlers age group for PC, but if they are also ranking they will need their ordinary age group too... Oh yeah, all over 35's are counted as vets for PC but some will normally be M or S in the ranking lists. I think a separate field for PC age group would make sense?

Elaine circulates the team list spreadsheet from time to time for us to check that she has us entered for the right events, I'm sure if online entries could be used to manage the list instead it would help the team managers!
I had no idea how teams were selected! Is that top 3 based on current rankings or on bib numbers?
Need to get a copy of Elaine's spreadsheet I think!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: The Mysterious Workings of Pan-Celtics

Post by JimW » Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:39 pm

Dee wrote:
JimW wrote:From what I have learned about the way PC works in practice, I think the proposed approach where the team managers identify the paddlers to be included in the team is probably going to be favourite.

Had you picked up on the way that the top 3 paddlers in each age group make up the team, and where there are less than 3 available in an age group spare paddlers from other age groups can be substituted (with some restrictions, like no under 35's can substitute as vets)? You might need to add a facility for team managers to override a paddlers age group for PC, but if they are also ranking they will need their ordinary age group too... Oh yeah, all over 35's are counted as vets for PC but some will normally be M or S in the ranking lists. I think a separate field for PC age group would make sense?

Elaine circulates the team list spreadsheet from time to time for us to check that she has us entered for the right events, I'm sure if online entries could be used to manage the list instead it would help the team managers!
I had no idea how teams were selected! Is that top 3 based on current rankings or on bib numbers?
Need to get a copy of Elaine's spreadsheet I think!
I'm not sure, I think the PC rules are developed by meetings of the team managers so you really need direct contact with them!

Steve Agar
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:30 am

Re: The Mysterious Workings of Pan-Celtics

Post by Steve Agar » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:27 pm

I feel a good starting point would be to try and publish what the Pan-Celtic means to both competitors and national associations. It doesn't even appear to make it into the yearbook list of championship results, and results on the day are subsumed by the individual competitions. I think its purpose and profile need to be better established, with clear definition of how it is to be viewed agreed by the national associations. The requirements of the online entry system will then be easier to plan and deliver rather than poor Dee having to work in the dark. I don't know whether its meant to provide a target for ambitious youngsters to aspire to, or demonstrate how much better one home nation is at persuading its paddlers to turn up at particular events. We dropped the inter-regionals, keep the inter-clubs, and the credibility of the Pan-Celtic series is questionable. All of these events need to be worked into a clear picture of progression and fulfilment for those keen to represent club, region or country, and stimulate healthy rivalry at anything other than individual level.

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: The Mysterious Workings of Pan-Celtics

Post by JimW » Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:05 pm

I suspect in relation to Steve's point that the reason we are often short of volunteer paddlers for PC is that no-one really knows what it is.

CeeBee
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:12 pm
Location: Falkirk

Re: The Mysterious Workings of Pan-Celtics

Post by CeeBee » Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:53 pm

I think the team manager needs to manage the Pan Celtic entries as this avoids mistakes by paddlers and organisers.

I would propose that the PC team manager enters their full team online as a separate category . ( I think there are now different age categories for the Pan Celtic depending on whether it is run alongside a prem race or a Div 1 race). This category could be prepopulated with all the classes and age categories that apply at that race e.g.at a Prem event, there would be J18 for each of K1M, K1W, C1M, C1W and C2. There are 3 spaces per age group. As Jim says, a J16 can paddle as a J18, U23 or Senior (but not old enough to be a master). It would also show the country they are racing under.

The team manager would then go into this and enter the name , current division and bib number of the paddler racing in that category and age group in the Pan Celtic. This would also have a tick box to say whether this paddler is entered in the main race or is in addition to the main race. This may change as entries are received and so the team manager would need to go into the online system periodically and update this tick box (or it could maybe be done systematically). All ticked boxes do not need a start time in the start list as they already have a ranking run. All non ticked boxes do need a start time. Typically they go down at the start of the same class e.g. K1W Pan Celtic only go down before the K1W Prem. The team manager can also go in and modify an entry to another paddler if someone becomes unavailable.

When the start list is generated, another column could be added showing that they are racing for Scotland U23 say - this could replace the club field if there is insufficient space (I think this is typically what we have done in the past).

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: The Mysterious Workings of Pan-Celtics

Post by Dee » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:19 pm

CeeBee wrote:I think the team manager needs to manage the Pan Celtic entries as this avoids mistakes by paddlers and organisers.

I would propose that the PC team manager enters their full team online as a separate category . ( I think there are now different age categories for the Pan Celtic depending on whether it is run alongside a prem race or a Div 1 race). This category could be prepopulated with all the classes and age categories that apply at that race e.g.at a Prem event, there would be J18 for each of K1M, K1W, C1M, C1W and C2. There are 3 spaces per age group. As Jim says, a J16 can paddle as a J18, U23 or Senior (but not old enough to be a master). It would also show the country they are racing under.

The team manager would then go into this and enter the name , current division and bib number of the paddler racing in that category and age group in the Pan Celtic. This would also have a tick box to say whether this paddler is entered in the main race or is in addition to the main race. This may change as entries are received and so the team manager would need to go into the online system periodically and update this tick box (or it could maybe be done systematically). All ticked boxes do not need a start time in the start list as they already have a ranking run. All non ticked boxes do need a start time. Typically they go down at the start of the same class e.g. K1W Pan Celtic only go down before the K1W Prem. The team manager can also go in and modify an entry to another paddler if someone becomes unavailable.

When the start list is generated, another column could be added showing that they are racing for Scotland U23 say - this could replace the club field if there is insufficient space (I think this is typically what we have done in the past).
I think this is largely the same as I'm suggesting - the additional bit is which classes and age categories apply at each event.
In my scenario the team manager does not say who has a ranking run that will be automated as it is up to individuals to enter and pay for a ranking run.
The start list will, of course, have runtime slots - I just thought I'd leave startlists (and where those runtime slots sit) until I've got the basics - the startlists can even be left to early next year.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: The Mysterious Workings of Pan-Celtics

Post by Dee » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:26 pm

Steve Agar wrote:I feel a good starting point would be to try and publish what the Pan-Celtic means to both competitors and national associations. It doesn't even appear to make it into the yearbook list of championship results, and results on the day are subsumed by the individual competitions. I think its purpose and profile need to be better established, with clear definition of how it is to be viewed agreed by the national associations. The requirements of the online entry system will then be easier to plan and deliver rather than poor Dee having to work in the dark. I don't know whether its meant to provide a target for ambitious youngsters to aspire to, or demonstrate how much better one home nation is at persuading its paddlers to turn up at particular events. We dropped the inter-regionals, keep the inter-clubs, and the credibility of the Pan-Celtic series is questionable. All of these events need to be worked into a clear picture of progression and fulfilment for those keen to represent club, region or country, and stimulate healthy rivalry at anything other than individual level.
I do agree with this (especially "poor Dee having to work in the dark" :P ), but I also know that if pan-celtics are going to stay then we need something in for next year, which means trying to collect info now.

....Unless of course someone is going to propose that we ditch Pan Celtics given the pressure on races (should we really be passing over a host paddler to give a pan-celtic paddle-up a non-ranking run?), this would mean I wouldn't need to develop anything :wink: Maybe it should be ditched next year and resurected in a new form in 2019?
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: The Mysterious Workings of Pan-Celtics

Post by JimW » Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:19 am

Dee wrote:(should we really be passing over a host paddler to give a pan-celtic paddle-up a non-ranking run?)
I suspect if paddlers understand what it is, and actually put their names forward for the team, that this will almost never happen because there would be enough paddlers in the host division to fill the places...

CeeBee
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:12 pm
Location: Falkirk

Re: The Mysterious Workings of Pan-Celtics

Post by CeeBee » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:54 pm

Dee raises an interesting point. In the past, there wasn't the same pressure on Prem and Div 1 races and so Pan Celtic entries did not stop a ranking paddler getting an entry.

This is now an issue and as such I think we should treat Pan Celtic in the same way as Paddle Up i.e. priority given to the host division until 4 weeks before the race. Pan Celtic entries could then be treated equally to Paddle Ups or given priority to Paddle Ups (there will be very few not in the ranking race so I would be happy for them to get priority).

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: The Mysterious Workings of Pan-Celtics

Post by Dee » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:46 pm

The other option is to reconsider which races are held as pan-celtics (and championships) and avoid those that are most likely to be oversubscribed.

I don't really feel at all strongly about this - but I just need some rules by which to code. I think I want to :cry:
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Post Reply