Simplifying Vets

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
James Hastings
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:43 pm

Re: Simplifying Vets

Post by James Hastings » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:22 pm

Nick,

I would certainly support such a proposal, but as I'm now paddling as an independent I won't get a vote at the ACM anyway. As you're probably aware I've become increasingly frustrated by the decline in challenging water available for div 2 races, and this is evidenced by a significant fall in my participation in recent years.

I have been in div 1 but just didn't chose to turn vet before I got demoted and I also still river run at grade 4/4+, thus I'm unlikely to be intimidated by what is now classified as div 1 water.

I there is a worry of 'queue jumping' by a horde of masters turning vet to take advantage of more challenging water, then limit the vets entry to a percentage of the entry limit.

James

Nick Penfold
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: Simplifying Vets

Post by Nick Penfold » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:57 am

Taking a step back, it's probably worth asking why people turn Vet rather than racing as Masters in the mainline divisions. They ought to speak for themselves, but I think it's because:
* There's a Vets camaraderie on the start line
* There is no risk of demotion, so they can take a relaxed approach and enjoy racing
There are a few Vets (6 in the Yearbook) who are classed as "Div 3" and some are concerned that, under the simplification proposal, their times would be compared with Div 2s at 2/3 races. It's a fair worry. But actually, because we never demote Div 3s, the demotion reason above doesn't really apply to them and they could safely be ranked back into the mainline. That doesn't meet the camaraderie issue, I agree. But some may not care about points, anyway.

djberriman
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Simplifying Vets

Post by djberriman » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:07 pm

Certain people have been asking for this for all divisions (paddle where you dare) without much success!

Sounds good to me and now that divisions allocate points in the 2000,1000,500,250 it makes it possible, So a 'prem quality' Vet racing at a div 3 can only receive a maximum of 250 points. A Prem/1 Vet can already race at any level anyway. I guess your 'problem' would be vets prizes, could be a clean sweep by the same paddler at every event. Then again do vets/masters need prizes, isn't that money better off left in the sport.

The simpler the better for me, having written the ranking database all the complications are caused by vets and c2's, not there fault, that's just how it is as it adds a lot of extra complexity, not a major issue, but I like anything that is simple.

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Simplifying Vets

Post by Dee » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:06 am

djberriman wrote:....... I like anything that is simple.
Hear! Hear! KISS
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: Simplifying Vets

Post by JimW » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:11 pm

Nick Penfold wrote: * There's a Vets camaraderie on the start line
I've found that this can exist in ranking divisions if you actually chat with the youngsters. Certainly in div 2 and 3 :)

WindsorCC
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:22 pm

Re: Simplifying Vets

Post by WindsorCC » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:08 pm

My reason for going into Vets when I started racing again was mostly because at the time I thought I'd just want to do Shepperton each year, probably not do very well and wouldn't have enough points to stay up, so would bounce between div 2 and div 1

As it turns out, I've done loads more racing and have ended up being better than I expected, and have taken it more seriously than expected (red mist...)

So, I could into to Div 1, but then there are going to be many others who actually are only doing a couple of races per year, so they probably need the ability to sit in a particular division without the risk of being demoted.

Personally I'll probably stay in Vets so I've got the option to do the occasional Prem race (even though there's no hope of getting any decent points with the Championship format), without going in as a paddle-up.

Slapdash Sal
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:36 pm
Location: Peterborough

Re: Simplifying Vets

Post by Slapdash Sal » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:25 pm

An interesting debate.
Currently I paddle as a Master but have recently debated going Vet, especially as I am likely to be demoted to Div 1 at the end of the season.
Having said that I enjoy the challenge of racing against the younger paddlers and wonder whether I would be motivated to train as much (a good fitness regime for me) if I was competing as a Vet.
I have thoroughly enjoyed paddling alongside the Juniors and wonder whether if we only have Vets that we are segregating the sport too much?
I cannot imagine some of the younger Masters wanting to sign up to Vet yet?
Personally, I like the option of Masters/Vet.

Sal

davieq
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:06 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Simplifying Vets

Post by davieq » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:54 pm

My opinion for what it's worth. I paddled div 2/3 vets for about 10 years but opted back into the 'normal' ranking system at the end of the 2015 season, the reason being I got fed up being the only Vet at a lot of races and often being stuck right at the end of the startlist nowhere near the people I was racing against (div 2). Suffice to say that season 2016 saw a great increase in the number of paddlers opting to race as vets :( I would seriously consider returning to Vets if more people signed up (paddlers north of the border you know who you are :D )

Davie Q

djberriman
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Re: Simplifying Vets

Post by djberriman » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:03 pm

Like slapdash Sal I'm probably going Vet , nearly did last year, scraped enough points to stay divisional, doubt it will happen this year, just not enough time to train properly plus a long term injury which is hopefully just about sorted after 3 years might allow me to get back to where I used to be allowing for increased age since then.

Vet status has benefits, stretchy bib and a P/1 Vet can race at any event which means I can race at a Div 2/3 without having to be a judge which is great when you want to coach but also have a timed run down the course as well. I can still compare my times to the usual culprits but I'll guess I'll miss encouraging those youngsters around me on the start line, I won't miss being caught up now and then by them!

It will also mean I have a chance to watch/coach my div 1 paddlers as I won't be running at the same time

Jerry Tracey
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:09 am

Re: Simplifying Vets

Post by Jerry Tracey » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:29 pm

Hi Nick,

Many thanks for initiating this consultation!

One division for Vets would seem to make sense and would be within the spirit of open and informal participation.
One aspect to consider, though, is that P/1 Vet status currently gives automatic qualification to some championship level events. I would be sad to lose this - it led to one of my best ever paddling experiences - participation in the Lee Valley Olympic course commissioning event in March 2011! Perhaps future opportunities of this kind could be opened to all registered Vets (?) - we are by definition 'mature' and should be able to judge what we can safely tackle!

Best Wishes!
Jerry Tracey.

WindsorCC
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:22 pm

Re: Simplifying Vets

Post by WindsorCC » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:24 am

I'd certainly want to retain the ability to enter Prem and championship events (unless this weekend goes really badly....)

I'm all for simplifying as far as possible, and so would support a single Vets division with simplified points.

However, I can foresee some resistance from non-vets if any Vet then has the ability to enter any division. We all know that we're sensible enough to enter the right races, but I wonder if some will think there are going to be 'loads' of Div 2/3 vets entering Div 1/prem races (I know that's not going to happen, I'm just playing devils advocate).

I'm also a bit concerned as to whether longer-term there's a risk in the future of vets being denied access to prem & championship events if they are oversubscribed. It'd be quite an easy step to free-up some places by changing the rule in the future, and I suspect there wouldn't be enough vets to resist it. Perhaps one to be mindful of.

How about a second motion, if the first doesn't go through, retaining the P/1 and 2/3 but simplifying the points model?

JohnMac
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:43 pm

Re: Simplifying Vets

Post by JohnMac » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:17 pm

Keep it simple!

oldandslow
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Location: Peak District

Re: Simplifying Vets

Post by oldandslow » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:06 am

Just thought of another problem when calculating points in Div 2/3 VETS - with the old system and new proposals. It is possible (even likely for borderline paddlers like me) for a Div 3 VET to get more points in the ranking league than a Div 2 VET. Could there be some floor so coming last in a div 2 event does not give less points than winning a div 3 event. So, points in div 3 are allocated between 1 to 250 and in div 2 between 251 to 500. No idea how complicated that would make the maths!
Life is what happens when you're making other plans.

djberriman
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Simplifying Vets

Post by djberriman » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:29 am

I'd suggest VETS can enter any division, they decide at a 2/3 to enter 2 or 3 and their results are compared to that division, thus given the way points now work someone paddling in Div 2 will always get more than someone paddling in Div 3. Forget the combined events logic and keep it simple.

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Simplifying Vets

Post by Dee » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:57 pm

djberriman wrote:I'd suggest VETS can enter any division, they decide at a 2/3 to enter 2 or 3 and their results are compared to that division, thus given the way points now work someone paddling in Div 2 will always get more than someone paddling in Div 3. Forget the combined events logic and keep it simple.
Actually that creates an additional set of complications.
Organisers just won't be clear whether a vet is entering as a 2 or a 3. There is enough issues with helpers not knowing the difference between vet and master as it is!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

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