Championship Format in Prem

[stevepearson]

I noticed the proposal for the up coming event at the graveyard.........there's no mention of qualifying by age group (or that i can see), in Europe they race by age group & whilst i'm not proposing changing the whole format it might make sense for certain number of S, U23, U18, U16, U14 to qualify in 1st run?

Just an idea that may get more people thinking & a different approach to that tabled


PS - i'm please that the format is different at Bala & people are looking to develop race formats

[Nick Penfold]

That would make the "superfinal" into a parade, and award places and points points out of all proportion to performance. Let's keep the race open and give the top J16s prizes as top J16s, and places in the final if they earn them.

[Mark H]

Are we trying to run races like Europe or not.
I thought the reasons for running different event styles was
to give paddlers experience of the European format etc.
As Steve says this is done in age group not just the top 10 say in Europe.
At least everyone will get two runs per day in Wales. I don't think this can
be said for the British Open?

[BaldockBabe]

When people say "like in Europe" I assume they mean the ECA events? The ICF and Euros (Also ECA but different format it would seem) are not run on an age basis. Why would we be trying to make domestic events like the ECA ones?

If done on an age basis how do you envisage points being allocated?

[SilverSurfer]

Personally I don't know why we believe there is a need to mess with the original domestic format of 2 runs for everyone, best run counting. Why is there such a big push for the so called European format, Championship format ? Who does this really benefit? I think we have become obsessed of late with a Championship format at Premiership events. Change for the sake of change !

The reality is, with the odd exception it's pretty predictable in all classes who will make the final based on the result of the first run.

[stevepearson]

That would make the "superfinal" into a parade, and award places and points points out of all proportion to performance. Let's keep the race open and give the top J16s prizes as top J16s, and places in the final if they earn them.

Hardly a parade Nick.

[CeeBee]

The most important point is that paddlers enter races to compete and come away feeling they have done their best and earned the points. We need to be very careful that we do not disengage paddlers by making them feel they are no good and it is not worth competing.

Having a final is fine for the top 10 paddlers , most of whom are professional athletes , train all week at a top quality venue and race at various Internationals abroad. Do we really need to give primarily them more water time than the rest of the equally important prem paddlers. We've all paid the same race fee so should get the same number of runs.

If you want to make each run count, then at a prem race, give points for each individual run on a particular day so 2 sets of points for 2 runs.

For many prem paddlers, they travel to race at the weekend on sites they have limited access to and would prefer a double event so they get 4 runs to get more out of the weekend. We have good double prems at Grandtully and Tryweryn. Lee Valley and HPP should also be double prems. (An exception can be made to allow Cardiff to run as a single prem). We spent £500 for accommodation, fuel, water fees , race fees and food to race at Lee Valley for 2 runs.

[SilverSurfer]

The way the British Open was run raises further questions over fairness when a Championship format is used. In both K1W and K1M Premier paddlers tagged as GBR were allowed to paddle in the final on Sunday despite not qualifying for the final.

Why ? The rules stated that in both the Premier Race and British Open only 10 paddlers would qualify for the final, but on the day GBR tagged Premier paddlers who did not qualify paddled in the final. Why should they have an extra run, extra water time over other Premier paddlers who paid the same entry fee.

[CeeBee]

I suspect it was unintended consequences to keep the race as an ICF ranking race. As an organiser trying to abide by rules, sometimes the reality versus the theory plays out in a strange way.

[JimW]

I suspect it was unintended consequences to keep the race as an ICF ranking race. As an organiser trying to abide by rules, sometimes the reality versus the theory plays out in a strange way.

This is my understanding.
Also British paddlers qualifying as internationals were not eligible for the British Open Champion title.

Strange consequences indeed!

[SilverSurfer]

I'm sorry, but it still doesn't make sense.

Maybe I'm looking at things too simplistically, but then maybe that's the issue with Premier Races today, we are trying to over complicate things with so called Championship formats, without actually asking why, and whats the benefit.

The published rules for the event stated only the top 10 boats in the semi-final qualify for the final (Premier Race & British Open), therefore only 10 boats should paddle in the final. Pretty black and white to me.

What was the point of allowing non qualifying GBR boats, who could not actually win the British Open or gain more Premier Points than their semi-final position to paddle in the final?

[SilverSurfer]

.. to add, picking up on JimW comment,

Also British paddlers qualifying as internationals were not eligible for the British Open Champion title

If correct does that mean Jono Atkinson is the British Open K1M Champion and not Joe Clarke ? The top 4 paddlers in the final were GBR internationals, Jono was the first non international paddler in 5th place.

[Canadian Paddler]

Those that came to pros giving will have heard my attempts to explain this. So here goes again.
There were two races at the weekend.
The British open incorporating a premier race. Progressions as announced. All paddlers were entered into this race.
Run in parallel was a world ranking points race. This race was open to internationals and only 6.British paddlers per event, all had to be designated before the race.
It was pointed out in the week before the race that progression in the ranking race had to be seperate from the progressions in the open. A consequence of this was that as there were led than 10 internationals in each class, all must be allowed to race a final.
So where someone was knocked out of the British Open in the semis (or heats) they had to be allowed to race the next phase for World Ranking points. They were no longer.part of the British Open and got Premier points based only on where they came in the British Open.

This is illustrated by Joe Clarke who won the British Open by qualifying from wcery phase and winning the final. This is in contrast to Fiona Pennie who, unfortunately, got a 50 in the semifinal. Her points are based on the semi final, she reached the semi final in the British Open. But she was one of less than 10 in the World Ranking points race so raced the final and won that with an amazing run.
Think that is.confusing? Think of Andy trying to produce results for the two races separately.

So what next? Well we tried something different so the Slalom Committee will review the race and decide what to do next year. World Ranking points or not. Standard Prem, super Final or Championship? Single Semi or a and b semis.
All with the backdrop of a British Canoeing Super September event. Or return to stand alone with all the additional expense and increased entry fees.
The debate has started and some opinions have been strongly put to the Organiser and Slalom Chair.
Next committee.meeting is after racing at the hpp div 1. So a late meeting after a long day but it is the last.one before the ACM so if you want to express.your opinion that is when you need to m let us know by.

[BaldockBabe]

I suspect it was unintended consequences to keep the race as an ICF ranking race. As an organiser trying to abide by rules, sometimes the reality versus the theory plays out in a strange way.

This is my understanding.
Also British paddlers qualifying as internationals were not eligible for the British Open Champion title.

Strange consequences indeed!

This is not strictly correct and although I agree it was not properly thought through in advance of the event and this has led to confusion and a headache for some involved but as I understand it:

This weekend there were effectively 3 races in operation - The Prem, The British Open and an ICF Ranking Event.

Some paddlers (i.e. those nominated by GB) were entered for all three races and could win one or all of the events.

Some paddlers (i.e. those British paddlers not nominated for GB) were entered into the Prem and the British Open.

The other paddlers (i.e. the International paddlers that were not nominated for GB) were entered into the British Open and the ICF Ranking Event.

Under the ICF rules a certain number of paddlers need to progress to the semi finals and finals regardless of the start number. As there were very few International paddlers (i.e. Internationals and GB nominated paddlers) this effectively meant that they were all entitle to qualify for the semi finals and the majority could qualify for the finals.

This led to a position where we had finals with more than 10 paddlers because there were International paddlers that did not qualify for the British Open final (and Prem final if they were GB paddlers) but did qualify for the ICF Ranking Event final.

That means that in the finals we had the following mix:

GB nominated paddlers that had qualified for the Prem/ British Open final in their own right who were therefore eligible to win the Prem/ British Open and the ICF Ranking event.

GB nominated paddlers that had not qualified for the Prem/ British Open final in their own right who were therefore only eligible to win the ICF Ranking event.

International paddlers that had qualified for the British Open final in their own right who were therefore eligible to win the British Open and the ICF Ranking event.

International paddlers that had not qualified for the British Open final in their own right who were therefore only eligible to win the ICF Ranking event.

Domestic paddlers that had qualified for the Prem/ British Open final in their own right who were therefore eligible to win the Prem/ British Open.

Not easy to understand when the event is going on and it has not been made clear in advance but hopefully that explanation assists!

For the few international paddlers the event attracted I am of the view it really was not worth it!

[BaldockBabe]

My above post appears to have been typed at the same time as Colin's!!!