Championship Format in Prem

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
andy n
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:49 pm

Re: Championship Format in Prem

Post by andy n » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:40 pm

So what next? Well we tried something different so the Slalom Committee will review the race and decide what to do next year. World Ranking points or not. Standard Prem, super Final or Championship? Single Semi or a and b semis.
Interesting that there is no mention of the format that a very large number of paddlers would like - a Double Prem. Two days, two races with Super Finals, British Open determined by the aggregate winner over the event.

Keep the Super September theme but make time to showcase the rafting and boater-X on Olympic channel at a more reasonable time, not after everyone has left the site.

John Sturgess
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 12:01 am
Location: Gedling, Nottingham/Long Preston, North Yorkshire

Re: Championship Format in Prem

Post by John Sturgess » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:41 pm

KISS?

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: Championship Format in Prem

Post by JimW » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:42 pm

BaldockBabe wrote:
JimW wrote:
CeeBee wrote:I suspect it was unintended consequences to keep the race as an ICF ranking race. As an organiser trying to abide by rules, sometimes the reality versus the theory plays out in a strange way.
This is my understanding.
Also British paddlers qualifying as internationals were not eligible for the British Open Champion title.

Strange consequences indeed!
This is not strictly correct and although I agree it was not properly thought through in advance of the event and this has led to confusion and a headache for some involved but as I understand it:
Poor choice of wording by me, I was only meaning those Brits who didn't qualify through the semis but then ended up in the finals as if they were international competitors.

Colin's explanation is definitely the best!

SilverSurfer
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 1:09 pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: Championship Format in Prem

Post by SilverSurfer » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:44 pm

Thank you for the update, all makes sense, although I don't agree with running 3 races in that way. So did those entered into 3 races, with the guarantee of 4 runs pay a higher entry fee ?

Mark H
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:09 am

Re: Championship Format in Prem

Post by Mark H » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:59 pm

I think Andy N is right with the format he suggested.
Most paddlers struggle to get any sort of water time on LV
so it seems crackers to me that when the chance arises to race at LV
we limit the number of runs for a great % of paddlers who pay the same
race fee as everyone else plus hotels rooms they don't need.
All of the paddlers train hard and invest in the sport, give them a chance of
two days paddling with a least two runs per class per day.

Maybe we should run a (not quite the British open race) prem race at a different venue on the same weekend where
paddlers are guaranteed 2 runs per class a day and let the top professional paddlers fight it out for the British Open title.
I would think that the British Open wouldn't run for very long as it would not be subsidies by the lower prem paddlers just wanting to to do what they train for.Race!

Elaine F
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:49 pm

Re: Championship Format in Prem

Post by Elaine F » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:33 pm

Let's hope we can ensure it is far less confusing for next year. Before that I believe there is still a need to correct the published points awarded for the Prem race as surely paddlers who did not qualify for the prem final (but raced in the icf ranking final) should have been awarded points based on their semi final position ,,, we cannot possibly have produced a situation where the GBR paddlers were effectively guaranteed top 10 points. Almost all K1W should have more points and so should a few K1M. As an example Alice must surely get 2000 points in recognition of her race win.

Mark H
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:09 am

Re: Championship Format in Prem

Post by Mark H » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:52 pm

Looking at Canadian paddlers earlier post you are absolutely right.

Keep it simple :D

Elaine F
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:49 pm

Re: Championship Format in Prem

Post by Elaine F » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:34 pm

I see the points have now been corrected. THANKS.

HPPaddle
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:24 am

Re: Championship Format in Prem

Post by HPPaddle » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:24 am

The start list of the British Open meant that many K1W could have traveled to Lee Valley on Saturday morning and avoided the expense of a Friday night hotel. However the late publication of the proposed start list and structure for the day meant that by the time that information was available, commitments had already been made and hotels booked.

The sport is already extremely expensive, so it would be great if those who run it gave more consideration to how to help us continue to take part, without feeling that we are wasting time and money due to late publication of information.

BaldockBabe
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:55 am

Re: Championship Format in Prem

Post by BaldockBabe » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:34 am

HPPaddle wrote:
The sport is already extremely expensive, so it would be great if those who run it gave more consideration to how to help us continue to take part, without feeling that we are wasting time and money due to late publication of information.
You mean those VOLUNTEERS who give up their own TIME to run the sport and spend equal amount of THEIR OWN money on accommodation etc. so that YOU can compete?

I don't know whey they bother.

JamesLyndon
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:24 am

Re: Championship Format in Prem

Post by JamesLyndon » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:44 am

Nick Penfold wrote:That would make the "superfinal" into a parade, and award places and points points out of all proportion to performance. Let's keep the race open and give the top J16s prizes as top J16s, and places in the final if they earn them.
I agree with this, making junior paddles automatically get through would mean better paddlers miss out on finals. Our system in the uk is based upon paddlers ability not age, this might work in Europe because they don't have ability based divisions it's more about the paddler's age. Having younger paddlers passing thought due to age will mean they automatically get more points and therefore higher rankings than their older counterparts who are likely to be better paddlers but will be ranked lower. It would also prevent divisional progression, this is because as a paddler moves up an age group they might then start getting ranked lower as they are racing against older paddlers, but they might be better than the end of the previous season. The current system promotes an individuals progression and ability as a better paddler mean higher rankings, no matter what age.

HPPaddle
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:24 am

Re: Championship Format in Prem

Post by HPPaddle » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:49 am

Dee:
"You mean those VOLUNTEERS who give up their own TIME to run the sport and spend equal amount of THEIR OWN money on accommodation etc. so that YOU can compete?

I don't know whey they bother."

I was not meaning to be rude about volunteers, our family volunteers a very significant amount time to support canoeing. I just want to express that it is expensive and the more we can be organised and share information early in the future, the more helpful it is for participants, who can then avoid unnecessary costs.

BaldockBabe
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:55 am

Re: Championship Format in Prem

Post by BaldockBabe » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:11 am

HPPaddle wrote:Dee:
"You mean those VOLUNTEERS who give up their own TIME to run the sport and spend equal amount of THEIR OWN money on accommodation etc. so that YOU can compete?

I don't know whey they bother."

I was not meaning to be rude about volunteers,
Sorry, but to me it did come across as rude about the volunteers.

When would be a good time to publish the start list? When do you book accommodation for an event? We book at the start of the season (actually for Tees we booked the day after the ACM) because it is the cheapest time and volunteering in the sport costs us £1,000's per year so saving what we can helps. We take a gamble, we usually pay a bit less for the non-cancel options when booking but there are usually flexible options available for a slight additional cost.

With entries having priority up to 4 weeks before, then paddle ups etc. it is usual that the organiser doesn't have a list until the week before the event. Some very organised organisers are able to produce a skeleton start list in advance, others have other commitments and are unable to do so. I don't think these people should be expected to carry more of a burden than they already have.

Even publishing the draft start list caused issues at Lee Valley this weekend. Several paddlers did not check the start list on the day, even though the one online was a draft resulting in abuse to the starter and the jury.

I am completely up for streamlining systems and changing things (as Dee has done so magnificently with the online entry system) to make the lives of volunteers, coaches (paid or voluntary) and paddlers easier, less time consuming and more cost effective but putting additional burdens on the limited volunteer base we already have is not acceptable.

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: Championship Format in Prem

Post by JimW » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:29 pm

HPPaddle wrote:The start list of the British Open meant that many K1W could have traveled to Lee Valley on Saturday morning and avoided the expense of a Friday night hotel. However the late publication of the proposed start list and structure for the day meant that by the time that information was available, commitments had already been made and hotels booked.

The sport is already extremely expensive, so it would be great if those who run it gave more consideration to how to help us continue to take part, without feeling that we are wasting time and money due to late publication of information.
So what about competitors from even further away?
Are you extending an invite for all the Scottish girls to stay at your house on the Friday night to take advantage of something like this in the future?

I really don't see how you can expect race organisers to publish information early enough for you to decide whether to travel on the Friday or Saturday, Prem events may be well booked in advance, but the PUs won't even know they have a place until 4 weeks before the event (Oh, thats right I can book accommodation for Teeside now, must get onto that), and lower divisions often don't have enough entries to produce a meaningful start list so early. I think 2 weeks before my event I had about 10 entries, that start list not only wouldn't have been very meaningful in respect of start times but might even have put people off entering -"Oh my class won't be quorate, there's no point going".

I guess the sport is quite expensive especially when you are mobilising the whole family to support 1 or 2 kids at an event, but is it really expensive in the overall scheme of things - I can think of much more ruinous sports, hobbies and pastimes we could all be doing instead! :)

HPPaddle
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:24 am

Re: Championship Format in Prem

Post by HPPaddle » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:45 pm

I am surprised and disappointed by the tone of the responses in this thread. I have decided to leave chatter and won't be reading it again.

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