Ranking and Promotion

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
Nick Penfold
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Ranking and Promotion

Post by Nick Penfold » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:05 pm

Each year the sport gets top-heavy with more paddlers than we can cope with in Prem and Div 1, and worthwhile competition is stripped out of Div 2 and Div 3. The "easy" solution is to raise the promotion targets, but I don't think that's the best option.
The real issue is that Div 2 and Div 3 paddlers have an awful lot of points-getting opportunities. There were 53 Div 2 races on the calendar this year. You couldn't do them all (some coincide) but then there were paddle-up opportunities as well, if you could get an entry. The upshot is that among promotees to K1M Div 1 so far this year there are 15 paddlers who did 13 races or more, and a couple who did 25 and 26.
I don't want to discourage keen paddlers but it sort of figures that, however good you are, if you race often enough you'll get lucky four or five times and you'll almost inevitably go up. What if, rather than raise the promotion targets, we based your ranking and promotion on your best five results from your last twelve races?

James Hastings
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:43 pm

Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by James Hastings » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:07 pm

Wouldn't it be much simpler to go back to end of season promotion only, based on equalising the number of paddlers getting demoted with the number of paddlers promoted, taking account of historical natural wastage in each division?

Dee
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by Dee » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:56 pm

James Hastings wrote:Wouldn't it be much simpler to go back to end of season promotion only, based on equalising the number of paddlers getting demoted with the number of paddlers promoted, taking account of historical natural wastage in each division?
No because that holds back paddlers who can and do improve significantly over the season.

Nick- do you know how much difference it would have made to the promotion figures?
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by JimW » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:09 am

Or encourage some of the organisers to run div 1 races instead?

harratts
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by harratts » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:40 am

We may not like to admit it but I feel that James has nailed the crux of the problem here.

It is the in season promotions that create the major issue of insuffiecient places being available towards the end of each season.

Can you image what carnage the various football leagues would have to put up with if teams that were running away with one division were promoted into the division higher part way through the season?

After all, are we really 'Holding people back' as it may not be a bad thing to spend at least one season in each of the 4 divisions currently available.

This would only mean that someone who started paddling in division 4 at the age of 10 would not get to division 1 before they were 13 and Prem. before they were 14 even if they were promoted in each consecutive year.

There is lots to be said for gaining experience and honing technique on route.
Steve

Dee
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by Dee » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:35 am

JimW wrote:Or encourage some of the organisers to run div 1 races instead?
Don't forget Prem has the same (perceived) problem.
Also
- div 2 races are largely in locations or at a time of year where the water is not suitable for div 1
- there are often complaints that the water at some div 2 races is not challenging enough. If you take away he harder ones....
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JamesLyndon
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by JamesLyndon » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:33 am

I think we need more demotions but also more opportunity to paddle what ever water. This could involve having a consistent number of people demoted from the bottom of each division, meaning more people flow down the divisions. This could be supported by having higher division evens such as div 1 and prem races all having an open event. This would mean less people in the higher divisions but still allowing people to paddle at the races in an open event. I think the divisions definitely need more fluidity.

Nick Penfold
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Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by Nick Penfold » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:15 pm

After all, are we really 'Holding people back' as it may not be a bad thing to spend at least one season in each of the 4 divisions currently available.
Yes, Steve, we are. To a great extent we are talking about teenagers whose development can be explosive: from time to time a complete newcomer makes it from Div 4 to Div 1 in a single year. End of year promotion, when we had it, meant that a paddler with 5 wins before mid-season had to mark time until the following March before the next challenge. In those circumstances what young paddlers do is find another sport.
In-season promotion is about motivating people and offering increasing challenge, promptly. And clearing the decks for the next paddlers to pick up the prizes.

andy n
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by andy n » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:22 pm

After all, are we really 'Holding people back' as it may not be a bad thing to spend at least one season in each of the 4 divisions currently available.
Nick is absolutely correct. Our Olympic K1M champion competed at his first Div 4 slalom just before his 12th birthday and by his 14th birthday had competed at 3 Premier events achieving quite respectable results.

andy n
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by andy n » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:27 pm

What if, rather than raise the promotion targets, we based your ranking and promotion on your best five results from your last twelve races?
I’m not sure Nick’s suggestion would make much difference. A vast majority of the Div 2 promotees have their best 5 results comfortably in their last 12 events.

Promotion from Div 1 to Premier is hard and well earned – the points required (4750) is a challenging target. For C1 and C1W it can seem even harder in the reduced fields (usually only 1st or 2nd places earn promotion points).

In contrast, promotion from Div2 to Div 1 only requires the equivalent of 4500 points (actually 2250 on new points), and there are many more racing opportunities.

Once promoted into Prem or Div 1 it’s relatively easy to stay there. End of season demotions are usually set at about 1000 points (Div 1 to Div 2). This only requires 5 results in the top 80% (average).

Personally, I would set Div 2 promotion target at 2375 points (or 3 wins). I would also set the demotions at an average of 5 results in the top 75% (Prem to Div 1 = 2500 points, Div 1 to Div 2 = 1250 points) but publish this at season start so that paddlers know the target to avoid the drop.

Nick Penfold
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Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by Nick Penfold » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:41 pm

I’m not sure Nick’s suggestion would make much difference. A vast majority of the Div 2 promotees have their best 5 results comfortably in their last 12 events.
Acknowledged.
Andy's proposed new promotion targets are quite a drastic shift. The trouble with changing targets is that it's hard to predict the impact. Of all this year's promotees to Div 1, only two have 2375 points (and the two have 3 wins anyway) but then they didn't have to get 2375: if that had been the target, they would almost all have stayed down for a race or two more. Most would have got up before long, but some wouldn't have made it before the end of the season. Total numbers would be lower but I don't know by how much.
At the end of last year Andy's suggested demotion cutoffs would have meant 5 additional demotions from Prem to Div 1 and 13 additional demotions from Div 1 to Div 2 - that's across all classes. It's a surprisingly small impact, but I don't disagree in principle. The 1000 points line, by the way, is not fixed although the Committee usually takes it as a guide.

CeeBee
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Location: Falkirk

Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by CeeBee » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:36 pm

As Nick says, difficult to know the impact of increasing the points for promotion from Div 2 to Div 1. I think we should increase the points but not sure by how much. Maybe we add 75-100 points for next year.

I think it is demotivating to get demoted and the paddlers in the Division they are demoted too don't like demotees who do well and win prizes again, so think we should avoid this.

In terms of promotion from Div 1 to Prem, I quite like the idea of end of season promotion but appreciate that this could be frustrating for someone who does well at the start of the season who is ready to paddle in prem. However, these paddlers can still paddle in Prem as Paddles up. There would also then be prestige of being the top ranked Div 1 at the end of the year. It would help manage the numbers at the top end.

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by JimW » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:48 pm

It just seems to me that tinkering with points doesn't really address a need for more top level races.
Dee wrote:
JimW wrote:Or encourage some of the organisers to run div 1 races instead?
Don't forget Prem has the same (perceived) problem.
Also
- div 2 races are largely in locations or at a time of year where the water is not suitable for div 1
- there are often complaints that the water at some div 2 races is not challenging enough. If you take away he harder ones....
It depends how you approach it.
Firstly I would suggest removing some of the div 2s that are claimed to be not challenging enough in order to retain the better races. This assumes that the existing race can be used as a div 3 or 3/4.
Some organisers have a choice of venues, so it is not necessarily about turning a harder 2 into an easier 1, there must be options for some groups to add an extra 1 on existing or unused venues.

Some thoughts:
- Div 3 only pay levies when run with a div 2, maybe some of the 2/3/4s would be better off as 3/4 only?
- I'm sure it doesn't happen, but presently a paddler could work up to promotion into div 1 paddling on div 4 venues with only the speed of the other competitors changing between divisions.
- Prem and div 1 pay same entry fees, and apparently div 1s are always full, so how come div 1 can't afford to use some of the premium venues, but Prem can?

harratts
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by harratts » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:16 am

Would a possible compromise be that in season promotion was only possible for paddlers who had secured full points (i.e. Won) at three previous races in that season?

This would not hold back the most capable paddlers in each division but would limit the impact that in season promotion causes to division 1 especially as we progress through the year.

It would also allow those paddlers who wanted to gain more river / race experience in their current division to do so without fear of getting promoted until they were ready to do so.

Steve

CeeBee
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Location: Falkirk

Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by CeeBee » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:18 pm

I've just had a look at the ranking lists and for Div 1 after all races, there have been the following promotions to premier -

Class --------- Promoted -----Competitors (excluding Short Season) ------- % promoted

K1W ------- 12 ----------------- 60 ------------------------ 20%
K1M ------- 22 --------------- 113 ------------------------- 19%
C1W ------- 7 ------------------ 23 -------------------------- 30%
C1M -------- 8 ------------------ 38 ------------------------- 21%

In my opinion these percentages are too high and should be nearer the 15% mark.

So what impact has this had on Prem. To date, 7 K1M, 7 K1W, 9 C1M and 3 C1W in Premier have not raced. The promotions above will therefore increase all Prem classes apart from C1M.

I think we need to decide what the optimum Premier class sizes should be and then decide on a plan to get there.

If we decide that the Div 1 promotees are better than the bottom of Prem, it is fair that they are promoted and this will then require Prem devotees to maintain the class sizes.
Last edited by CeeBee on Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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