Ranking and Promotion

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
Mike Mitchell
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by Mike Mitchell » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:30 pm

I have managed to get an entry to every race entered this year for myself and my boy. Last one tonight for HPP.
So there is not a real problem provided Div 1 douse not get any bigger.

So hear are some considerations.

1.Set the total number of paddlers allowed in each class of each division.
At the end of season demote paddlers to get back to the decided number.

2. With the season possibly starting earlier and finishing latter, divide it into Two with a clear Summer break.
Then promotions and possibly demotions would only take place twice a year, with a set number of promotions in the Summer brake and the rest at end of year. Final ranking would still remain end of year and so would bib numbers.
Entries for the second half of the season would only get accepted after the first half ends, giving promoted paddlers an equal chance of getting an entry.
So for example if 5 div 1, K1 paddlers were to get promoted at the Summer interval, then there would be a race to finish in the top 5 and the bottom 5 prem paddlers would get demoted, giving them the chance to get back up in the second half of season.
Paddle Up points would still count the same.

JimW
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by JimW » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:12 pm

For the divisions that do have a definite summer break, Mikes second idea must be worthy of more discussion?

Are you thinking of resetting points at the summer break or carrying them over?
At first thought carrying over might suggest that all the same people would get promoted in the end, but in fact for the second half of the season they would have the demoted paddlers hopefully contending for the top spots so it would avoid a situation where promotion suddenly becomes much easier to attain towards the end of the year, assuming the demotees are still capable of winning in the lower division. I guess if they aren't it would prove that it doesn't get easier towards the end of the season.

Dee
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by Dee » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:32 pm

Mike Mitchell wrote:....So there is not a real problem provided Div 1 douse not get any bigger.....
This does really back up what I've been saying, ie most paddlers are getting an entry at the vast majority of the host division races that they apply for. There are a couple of exceptions, but overall the division sizes are working!


Another way to approach the racing opportunities dilema (and I'm suprised this hasn't yet been put forward, though it is slightly off the wall) is to allow paddle-downs. This would allow div 1s to paddle at div 2 races. (and prems at div 1s). The points would need to be carefully thought through - ideally a few winning times in div 2 should stop a paddler being demoted to prevent the yo-yo effect, but middling points should not be enough to bolster poor div 1 points.

If we started to allow points to cross over in this way then div 2 points would count in div 1 and SS protection could be dumped.

This would be a pretty drastic change though so not something to jump at for this year!
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Arrowcraft
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by Arrowcraft » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:15 pm

Prem is about full now. Div 1 is just about to burst and Div 2 is shrinking. The next round of TID's from HPP & LV, plus the next lot of Stonies and our new slalom teams are likely to bring another 50 or so paddlers through in the next year...so will the divisions hold the volume or do we need to add an extra division in, between 2 and 1 now?

And do away with Paddle ups... The events are full enough. Portable points seems to have been pointless...therefore scrap that too. Make it nice and simple.

Prem should be special. no PUPS, if you want experience at Prem level then come and judge. Promotion end of year, 10% up 10% down...no exceptions.

Prem races should be 2 runs, best run counts. This championship format and super formats are just nonsense...finals and semi finals?....paddlers never know which run is scoring points and which is not? ... 2 runs, done. Simple. You can get more paddlers down the track than with other formats so more people can enter the race in the first place. Nobody watched the finals at the Graveyard last weekend...it was all a bit silly really...

SilverSurfer
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by SilverSurfer » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:36 am

Agree 100% with Arrowcraft. Sometimes we make changes without understanding why. It will be interesting to see if David Floerence and Adam Burgess are demoted from Premier C1M this year, it's not the first time David hasn't secured enough points to stay up - will the Slalom committee give him yet another chance ? Shouldn't matter who you are, if you don't make the points because you choose not to race, then you should be demoted.

Debs
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by Debs » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:24 pm

I attended treweryn prem this weekend who were trialing two race formats, neither of which were successful in the eyes of most people we spoke to.
Saturday
7 through to final from run 1, 3 through to final from run 2, from each category, apart from C2.
That left 40 people in the finals at the end of the day. Water time being tight due to release times, and people had been turned away from this race.
40 runs on Saturday if done in the normal best of two runs format, would have meant entries to Saturday's race for another 20 paddlers. That's £390 in race entry fees just for Saturday. And 20 happy paddlers!
Sunday
10 paddlers through to final from first runs, then the top ten paddlers raced in final at the end of second runs. Therefore if you didn't make the final from first runs you could not finish any higher than 11th after two runs. Even if your second run was faster and cleaner than paddlers in the final! And losing out on ranking points.
I believe there is a place for championship format and super finals, but only at championship races such as the British Open and the McConkey Championship. Standard premier races should remain the best of two runs I believe this is a fairer way to run a slalom competition.

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davebrads
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by davebrads » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:57 am

Most people are focusing on the problems in Premier and Div 1, but Div 2 has its problems too.

Division 2 is not big enough to support a day of racing on its own and that is an obstacle to putting on races on better water. We have a chicken and egg situation - experienced paddlers don't want to race in Div 2 because of the lack of quality races and quality races can't be run due to the lack of entries. I think we need to bite the bullet and support the divisional system as the best way to control the quality of competition, and that means more aggressive use of demotions.

We must also undo the damage caused to our divisional system over the past few years by a certain person working to his own misguided ideas on the best way to run our sport, and that includes abolishing paddle ups. This will restore the difficulty of achieving promotion thereby improving the quantity and quality of paddlers in the lower divisions.

As far as I am aware there is no need for any changes to the rules to allow the committee to increase the numbers of demotions. I would support a motion to get rid of paddle-ups, or propose it if necessary.

andy n
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by andy n » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:06 am

We must also undo the damage caused to our divisional system over the past few years by a certain person working to his own misguided ideas on the best way to run our sport, and that includes abolishing paddle ups.
This is a somewhat harsh and unjust comment.

Paddle up (PU) serves 3 purposes:
1. Accelerating promotion for very good paddlers - in reality very, very few PU paddlers have achieved points to aid promotion. Therefore any problems caused by too many promotions is only minimally attributable to PU.
2. PU paddlers get experience and more race exposure often on more challenging courses in a higher division - surely this is a good thing?
3. The race income is boosted making an event more financially viable - this has to be good as well?

Quite often there is a huge demand to enter as a PU but there is often no, or minimal spare capacity, so they are turned away. Host division paddlers have priority entry provided they enter on time. More of the paddlers failing to get a PU entry could enter as officials and I'm not sure why they don't? There were insufficient gate judges at the Graveyard event and a lot of available water time.

Yes there are too many paddlers currently in Premier and Division 1 and this does need controlling by setting tougher promotion levels and being harsher with demotions but I really don't believe that PU is responsible.

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davebrads
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by davebrads » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:52 pm

I really should check my facts! Andy is quite right that very few paddlers have been promoted as a result of a PU result.

I still don't feel that I was being harsh or unfair though, dismantling the divisional system is the professed aim of the person who introduced PU, and PU was presented to me as a first step in that direction. I strongly believe that the divisional system is a strength of the sport in this country, and contrary to some opinion is jealously and highly regarded in other countries. Perhaps the benefits of retaining PU should not be disregarded, but we must take steps to protect the value of the divisional system.

One step is to bolster the strength of Div 2. The races need to be bigger with a higher quality field to encourage organisers to run high quality races. The proliferation of Div 2/3s is making it too easy to gain promotion robbing the division of meaningful competition. Demotion from Div 1 is one answer, but we should also consider reducing the number of races, or increasing the height of the bar for promotion.

JimW
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by JimW » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:55 pm

davebrads wrote: The proliferation of Div 2/3s is making it too easy to gain promotion robbing the division of meaningful competition.
I have to mostly agree with this, I'm not sure if promotion is too easy or not, but the large number of promotions from div 2 is definitely reducing the meaningful competition - just look at the idiot who is currently ranked 6th in div 2 C1M, there is no way he is nearly ready for div 1, he proved it as PU at Chapel Falls! (if you are reading this after the weekend, it was me when I posted).

One third of div 2 C1M have been promoted this year, they may well all deserve it, but we are going to depend on a massive increase in skill through winter training for the top of the division going into next season to be as good as the top were at the start of this season - I could be in a single figure bib unless there are some demotions. Demotions need to be relevant, i.e. not just people who already stopped racing.

If a paddler really wanted to play the system (and I'm sure none do because it would leave them totally unprepared for div 1) they could cherry pick a bunch of low entry races on essentially flat water and work up to promotion without ever paddling in a large field, or on challenging water.
A lot of us felt that the new drop at West Tanfield was a bit hard for div 2 - John questioned that thinking and in retrospect that feeling is probably a result of dumbing down of div 2. The drop was actually not very difficult and side surfing out of the hole was not difficult, it just isn't something most div 2's have been brought up to expect. Arguably many div 3's with a slower approach were succeeding to get gates 7 and 8 with turning strokes which would have ensured missing the gates with a fast approach so it can't actually have been as difficult as we made it out to be? OK the slow approach ensured a side surf in the hole, but it usually spat paddlers out through gate 9 as long as they settled in with plenty of downstream edge to avoid the power flip.

Also, why are the div 2 races on harder water struggling?
- Dave is low on entries for HPP - my best race last year and one I am looking forward to
- Lee Valley Legacy looked low on entries and may not be on the calendar for next year - I was very close to entering that despite the 8 hour+ drive for a single race, and was hoping to do it next year.
- Pinkston - we were really low on entries this year, we hope we have worked out why and can rectify it for next year.
- Tully - again pretty low on entries, levels can be hit and miss but we had great levels this year, it was a cracking race.

The main success seems to be Washburn, although it doesn't really have the same kind of drops as the others. I love Washburn too!

What is it that is stopping people entering those 4 races, is it the distance, is it because some are only 1 day, is it because there is a shortage of cheap camping (Pinkston) or is it becuase the paddlers don't want to paddle the bigger water?
We need to find out - if those races are lost and PU is abolished I may be mostly racing as an official in future!

Nick Penfold
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by Nick Penfold » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:13 pm

JimW wrote: ...why are the div 2 races on harder water struggling?
It may be because promotion to Div 1 is stripping Div 2 of the paddlers who would have relished a challenge. Across all classes, about 100 paddlers a year get up to Div 1, and they must logically be the keenest and most capable.
Davebrads wrote: ...we should also consider reducing the number of races, or increasing the height of the bar for promotion
I have just written a short paper on promotion and division sizes, which is at http://www.canoeslalom.co.uk/info/05101 ... _Rates.pdf. It concludes that we should increase promotion targets for Div 2 and Div 3, and because it’s hard to predict the effect I suggest a phased approach: a small increase for 2018, then another for 2019 in the light of the consequences. I have in mind:
* Increasing targets for promotion from Div 2 to Div 1 (currently 2250) to 2300 for 2018 and then possibly to 2350 for 2019
* Increasing targets for promotion from Div 3 to Div 2 (currently 1040) to 1070 for 2018 and then possibly to 1100 for 2019
Would anyone like to propose and second a motion to this effect at the ACM? I can't, because I'm not a club member. You need to be a BC / SCA / WCA member and your club must be registered with slalom.

Canadian Paddler
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by Canadian Paddler » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:42 pm

. . . and represent the views of your club and get the signed motion to the secretary by 26th October. Two emails are acceptable as signatures.

So it is not difficult to submit a motion.
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JoS
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by JoS » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:14 pm

I suspect Pinkston may have struggled in June because it is in the middle of 4 consecutive weekends of div 2/3s, two of which had two 2/3s running the same weekend, one of which was Pinkston weekend:
Llandysul & Fairnilee
Bala Mill & Pinkston
Washburn
Howsham Weir
Then a weekend with no div 2s in then:
Ironbridge

So I'd be looking at that and thinking, well, I want a rest and some chilled-out weekend training in the middle of that 4 week block, and since Pinkston is div 3 one day and div 2 the other, and Washburn is always a laugh and has good pasta, Pinkston is the one I would reluctantly decide to miss.

JoS
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by JoS » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:24 pm

Tbh I'd be put off Lee Valley 2/O because of the behaviour of some of their paddlers and parents at other slaloms too, as well as it being one day, expensive, the wrong end of the M1 and hard to get practice on. I don't want to be saying it but it's how I feel :( I wanted to be looking forward to it as a course for when I finally get into div 2 but I'm thinking it's be one I'd choose to miss now.

Dee
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Re: Ranking and Promotion

Post by Dee » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:52 pm

JoS wrote:Tbh I'd be put off Lee Valley 2/O because of the behaviour of some of their paddlers and parents at other slaloms too, as well as it being one day, expensive, the wrong end of the M1 and hard to get practice on. I don't want to be saying it but it's how I feel :( I wanted to be looking forward to it as a course for when I finally get into div 2 but I'm thinking it's be one I'd choose to miss now.
That's sad. In response, I'd just like to say that after a couple of issues in 2016 mostly I think due to not understanding the rules or expectations of others, Lee Valley were very helpful at Sheppy div 1 this year. The paddlers (entered into the ranking event) took on a gate judging position for the whole weekend and made sure that it was manned which made our life much easier. I requested the same of another club but got nowhere.

The location at, what I would consider to be, the right :wink: end of the M1 is somewhat less controversial. The cost, unfortunately, is a consequence of artificial pumped courses in an expensive part of the country. On the plus side decent changing rooms, showers and loos which is not always the case at some div 2 venues. :)

PS I have no connection with Lee Valley other than living in the same half of the country
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

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