Entry Fees - Do we really need doubles vs singles

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Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Entry Fees - Do we really need doubles vs singles

Post by Dee » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:31 pm

Why do we have different rates for a double event - why isn't a double just twice the cost of a single.

The doubles vs single entries does complicate things for online entries and to a lesser degree for organisers and newbies. Could we not just charge a set amount for each race.

Out of curiosity I did a bit of analysis based on the online 2017 yearbook (disclaimer - I haven't double checked my figures so I may have missed one or two):

Div 4s: 37 doubles, 7 singles
Div 3s: 40 doubles, 2 singles
Div 2s: 23 doubles, 3 singles (but of the singles, 2 charged enhanced fees so don't really count)
Div 1s: 8 doubles, 4 singles (1 single with enhanced fees)
Prems: 2 doubles, 5 singles (1 single with enhance fees)


Based on these, there would be very little difference to Div 2, Div 3s and Div 4s if we just set the entrance fee to 1/2 the current double rate for all events. (so Div 4 - £4, Div 3 - £6.50, Div 2 - £8.50)

Div 1 and Prem are admittedly a bit trickier. For Div 1s I'd argue for compromising slightly and rounding up to £16. Prems do actually have more singles and tend to be on more expensive venues, so maybe charge something 1/2 way between 1/2 double and a single - £18 maybe.

I can't see any of this having any significant impact to what competitors pay over the year, or to the income for different competitions. If a specific competition was struggling then, as is currently the case, they would apply for enhanced fees. I am genuinely struggling to understand who, if indeed anyone, benefits from this charging structure?
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

stevepearson
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Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:42 am

Re: Entry Fees - Do we really need doubles vs singles

Post by stevepearson » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:04 pm

Sensible suggestion with facts backing up the thinking :)

Is there still a reduced fee for entering a single day with a 2nd class at any division & would this thinking be proposed to be rolled out there too?

Dee
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Entry Fees - Do we really need doubles vs singles

Post by Dee » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:45 pm

stevepearson wrote:Sensible suggestion with facts backing up the thinking :)

Is there still a reduced fee for entering a single day with a 2nd class at any division & would this thinking be proposed to be rolled out there too?
There is currently a multi class discount for div 2 and below, but because of the double entry fee notionally being already discounted, the discount only applies once over the weekend even if you enter two classes on both days. It doesn't apply if you enter one class one day and another the next (neither does the double entry fee). This makes it confusing for many if not most.

I do think that MCDs are a separate topic and in an ideal world, I'm in the "abolish MCD group", but I do know that there are others who would like to keep them, so if we went down the route of abolishing double event fees, I'd say we should change the MCD so that it could be claimed for both days. So if a paddler entered K1 and C1 on Sat and Sun then they would get a discount for Sat and a discount for Sun. There is still additional complications with C2, but I think it would be easier to grasp.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Entry Fees - Do we really need doubles vs singles

Post by JimW » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:50 pm

I think the idea is to benefit the organisers by encouraging people to enter doubles by making it a bit cheaper, thus ensuring that you get a core of paddlers present on both days - don't forget that even at a double event you get a varying number of single entries from paddlers with other commitments.

As a paddler, I can't think of any reason why I would only enter a single day of a double event unless I had another commitment - I do so many other things (mostly paddling) that this can happen, so I don't expect it makes very much difference to the number of single vs double entries at a double event.

If you do move to do away with the double fee, definitely get MCD tidied up at the same time so it is claimed each day and clear that it only applies if both classes are entered on the same day.
I would say it is probably more useful to encourage multiple classes than double entries, because I think most will enter double by default on account of the transport and accommodation costs usually being more than the entry.

CeeBee
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Location: Falkirk

Re: Entry Fees - Do we really need doubles vs singles

Post by CeeBee » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:21 pm

Events used to always be run as single events only with team events on the Saturday and individual runs on the Sunday. There was then a move to get more racing over the weekend and double events were created - our club ran the first ever Div 2/3 at Grandtully to make the event more worthwhile for paddlers to travel to . I think it was felt that there was no need to charge double the race fee for a double event. Organising clubs running a weekend event were used to getting an individual entry fee plus a team event fee.

Given that the majority of events are now run as double events, we could change the entry fees to make a single entry fee half that of a double entry fee. The events that are likely to notice the difference are Div 1/prems but then I think these should be double events anyway and they can always charge an enhanced entry fee like Teeside to cover the water fees.

So
Div 4 Double £8, single £4
Div 3 Double £13 , single £6.50
Div 2 Double £17, single £8.50
Div 1/Prem Double £31.25 , single £15.75

Regarding multi class discount for Div 2- Div 4, I think if a paddler has already paid for a first entry fee, I think charging the same again is too much. The fees are already high enough and surely we should be encouraging them to do more paddling over a weekend. For many families, they are paying for 2 children to participate in the sport. I know that we have found that many families will not do a second class for fun because of the cost involved and that when we have offered to discount the entry, we have had more takers for C1 and C2. [this is possible at Div 3/4 as no levies are paid]. Many of the Div 2,3,4 events are not fully subscribed so encouraging paddlers to compete in other classes for only a small additional fee makes no difference to the organiser in terms of lost revenue as the paddlers didn't enter when it was the full cost.

It may be easier to charge a reduced charge for multi class rather than giving a reduction. E.g. an additional class at a Div 3 race could be 50% of a standard entry fee. Would this make it simpler?

Div 4 Extra class £2
Div 3 Extra class £3.25
Div 2 Extra class £4.25

djberriman
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Re: Entry Fees - Do we really need doubles vs singles

Post by djberriman » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:17 am

Whilst an MCD is a nice idea, its a right royal pain to administrate and then account for in the slalom return to the extent some events don't bother to claim it. It just adds another huge layer of complication for the organiser particularly if the MCD entries are done on the day. Its a whole extra set of record keeping. It makes the online system complicated too (poor Dee) especially when a paddler gets promoted and their entry changes.

The majority of people don't understand MCD either, and either overpay or underpay leading to more work for control over the event weekend.

With limited volunteers anything that makes admin easier works for me. If I can just look at the number of entries and calculate the fees without having to count MCD and double fees it would be a lot simpler.

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Entry Fees - Do we really need doubles vs singles

Post by Dee » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:11 am

I'd like to keep it simple - one entry = one fee.

BUT part of what makes MCD so hard to understand (and manage) is that it applies to the weekend and not each day, but that the MC entries have to be on the same day. If we did away with double entry fee and charged x per race. Then MCD could be given per day.

The issue is that with double fees (effectively a discount for the second day) and MCDs with the added complication of C2s (bless 'm) you need a PhD to get it right (and even then it's touch and go!)

An alternative approach could be to charge £x for first race and £y for all second and subsequent races on the same weekend in the same or a different class. This would merge the double and MCD discounts and also give paddlers who do K1 Sat, C1 Sun a benefit. Still a pig to code, but I think it would be easier to understand for competitors. Might be a headache for levies though!

Sadly can't see any of this being proposed in time for this year.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

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