Div 4 C2 - Confused of Winchester

[IDL]

Like most of us, I'm aware that the way C2 works at ranking slaloms has changed. But until now I hadn't paid much attention to the details. I'm running our usual Div 4 & Open slalom this weekend and it's only just becoming clear to me that from an organisers point of view, it's not as straight forward as I thought, or as it used to be. Hopefully someone can give me an idiots guide?

Do we even have such a thing as Div4 C2 anymore?

Do I just stick everyone in the Open event, and if so do I have to separate out those that are ranked and the newbies?

So no promotion certificates for C2?

Do all the entry cards go to Stuart Meakins?

I could probably come up with more questions but I'm trying not to think about it too much. In desperation I've even tried reading the year book and the organisers handbook, but it still isn't clear,

[Dee]

My opinon, but I think some of this really still needs ironing out:

Do we even have such a thing as Div4 C2 anymore?

Not really as no concept of promotion - though I think this may have been an unintended consequence! Simply slalom does not allow for Div 4 C2s and assumes they will all be treated as open, I believe.

Do I just stick everyone in the Open event,

Pretty much

if so do I have to separate out those that are ranked and the newbies?

I would for prizes in order to encourage the newbies, but strictly speaking you probably don't have to.

So no promotion certificates for C2?

Correct, but if they do well then they should be encouraged to apply for ranking

Do all the entry cards go to Stuart Meakins?

Pass (I'd send them just in case)

I could probably come up with more questions but I'm trying not to think about it too much. In desperation I've even tried reading the year book and the organisers handbook, but it still isn't clear,

Unintended consequences again

[Dee]

PS And remember that C2 get a 50% discount!

[IDL]

Thanks Dee

Yearbook says that if it's an Open they don't get it half price. Just noticed we've deleted multi-class discount.

Another thought:

How do I handle ranked / registered C2's? Do they earn points at a Div 4 / Open?

[Canadian Paddler]

Ranked C2s do not get points at Div 4 and Open events. There are no ranking points to compare them against.

Otherwise agree with Dee but would email Stuart to check if he wants the cards, I suspect not.

[Dee]

Yearbook says that if it's an Open they don't get it half price.

Mmmm.
The half-price for C2s was all about encouraging participation so seems a shame not to give it here.
Worth noting that "Fees at Div 4 Open Events are at the Organisers discretion". So personally I think you could still give the discount to C2s.

CP might come along to tell me I'm wrong but, on the other hand, given his love of C2s .......

[IDL]

Yes Dee, I will use my discretion

[Canadian Paddler]

For once I will not argue with Dee,

Discretion is just that, and I applaud encouraging people to get in boats (especially C2s!)

[Dee]

For once I will not argue with Dee,

[djberriman]

I have no idea why we have got rid of Div 4 C2, it wasn't a ranking division and thus I don't see why it was affected by the rule change. I don't understand why we haven't just kept it as was promoting those as we do in K1 and C1 as we used to. I don't think what has now been put in place was an expectation of the ACM.

[Dee]

I have no idea why we have got rid of Div 4 C2, it wasn't a ranking division and thus I don't see why it was affected by the rule change. I don't understand why we haven't just kept it as was promoting those as we do in K1 and C1 as we used to. I don't think what has now been put in place was an expectation of the ACM.

As I said - an unintended consequence of all the rule changes to C2 at the ACM. Div 4 may not have ranked paddlers but it is still a division.

B1.1 The divisional system of five divisions (Premier, 1, 2, 3 and 4) in each of the four events (K1M, K1W, C1W and C1M) and one division in the C2 event ensures that there is a standard of competition suitable for Competitors of all degrees of ability. In addition, there is a Veterans divisional and ranking system and a competition series for Officials.

We perhaps need an ACM proposal to re-instate Div 4 C2, but it does need to define who is eligible to compete.

We currently have

B2.4 ....New C2 pairings that have not applied for ranking status may enter any competition at division 2 or below

Do we really want this to apply to Div 4 races? (it could be two K1/C1 Prem paddlers)

The focus at the ACM was for a single C2 ranking division and the option for scratch pairings. This is what we got! I suspect that what was wanted was more of a merge of divisions P to 3 and retention of Div 4.

The only way of getting this changed is to put in another proposal to the ACM this year. Perhaps something like:

B2.4 New C2 pairings with at least one paddler that is not ranked or with both paddlers ranked no higher than div 3 should compete in Div 4. Scratch C2 pairings that have not applied for ranking status and with both paddlers ranked and at least one paddler ranked in div 2 or above may enter any division 2 or division 3 competition.

B1.1 .... and two divisions in C2 (P-3 and Div 4)....

We could then re-instate the concept of promotion from Div 4 C2:
B4.3.1 ...C1M/C2/K1W: if they would have been promoted in the K1M event....


This does need someone to think it through a bit more thoroughly though (to avoid more unintended consequences!) and a club (or two) to propose changes.

[harratts]

Hi all.

There were to be no consequences to the existing C2 Division 4 by the proposal submitted, either intended or unintended.

The proposal submitted asked for the C2 Prem. / 1 Division to be combined with the 2 / 3 Division so that any C2 crews could then enter any race they felt able to do and achieve ranking points in the process. The maximum number of points available being determined by the difficulty of the race in question.

To increase the desire to enter C2's the time adjuster was to be applied at the higher level of 20% across the new combined C2 division class.

Entry fees were halved in an attempt to encourage even greater participation which seems to be happening at the lower level of races this year.

There was no mention in the proposal made in regard to Division 4 C2's which could have continued to operate as they were before. What happened was that when the wording in the Year book was changed to reflect the motion submitted that is when all mention of Division 4 C2's was removed.

For what it is worth I am not sure it makes much of a difference either way. New or scratch crews can now race at Division 3 events at half the cost of anyone else doing so and if they wish to apply for a ranking Bib (within a reasonable amount of time after the event finishes) they can be awarded with any ranking points secured and appear in the ranking list.

What would re-introducing the Division 4 C2 class achieve?

At a Division 4 only race then scratch C2 could always enter as an Open competitor as no rankng points are available at Division 4 races anyway.

Please shoot away if I have missed something.
Steve

[jke]

I agree with Steve, I don’t think it makes any difference. At the two div 4 races I’ve been to this year supporting club members there’s been just an Open C2 and in both cases they were all non-ranked crews. At Langham Farm div 3 in a couple of weeks I intend to award what would have been the div 4 prize to the highest non-ranked crew. Unless they are a couple of ringers.

A slight tweaking of the results though so that PREM-3 C2 just becomes C2. And then PREM-3 V just becomes VETERANS.

[JimW]

I agree with Steve and John.

There is no need for a division 4 C2 category because anyone (NGB member) can enter a C2 in any race up to div 2, there is no need to get promoted from div 4 into P/3, so no need to score C2s in division 4.
Allowing C2s to race as open class at div 4 gives any crews not happy to race on div 3 water a chance to race, but they can't get promotion points because no other classes in div 4 get promotion points. At a div 3/4 event they will get points as if div 3, and at a 2/3/4 they will get points depending on whether they would have earned more in div 2 or div 3, and will be entered as P/3 NOT open.
Only complication would be where div 4 uses a different piece of water (Llandysul 1/4) or a different start (sometimes at Wark, West Tanfield others?) to other divisions in which case the open C2s need to be kept very distinctly separate from the P/3s because they won't have raced on exactly the same course as the crews that can earn points. But the current arrangements allow for that, organisers need to be on the ball though.

Speaking of organisers being on the ball, I have a vague feeling I spotted C2s on a results sheet somewhere as open class where they could or should have been P/3 (before I had looked into how it works this year in preparation for our race), I have no doubt if any crew is missing points they will have worked out where and hassled the organiser already.

[jke]

Only complication would be where div 4 uses a different piece of water (Llandysul 1/4)

No complication, at Llandysul Andy and I considered entering the div 2 and the Open on the lake. Not for long though.