C1 Promotion points

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
CeeBee
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:12 pm
Location: Falkirk

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by CeeBee » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:26 pm

Jasper

typically, junior paddlers results improve as the season progresses as the paddler matures, gets more race experience and paddles more during the better canoeing months and particularly the summer holidays. So, I wouldn't consider how many races a paddler has attended , just how good their best races were.

For Div 1, you need 4750 points which is an average of 950 per race. For Div 2, you need 2300 points which is an average of 460 points.

So, it might be simpler to just consider a paddlers best 4 races and see whether this was better than 3800 points for Div 1 and 1840 for Div 2.

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by Dee » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:44 pm

I'm not sure it is as simple as just bumping paddlers up. The number of paddlers going up needs to be reflected in the numbers going down otherwise div 1 in particular could be very oversubscribed. And those at the bottom end of a division could be equally affected by competition cancellations! Potentially more so for those that planned to attend fewer competitions and then missed out,

Whatever is decided there will be winners (who will probably be pleased/relieved) and losers (who will feel angry and hard done by). I'm not convinced that there is or will ever be a truly fair resolution.

...Now where did I put my magic wand
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

CeeBee
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:12 pm
Location: Falkirk

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by CeeBee » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:11 pm

completely agree - nothing is ever simple!

The numbers in each division, particularly Prem and Div 1 need to be manageable so that paddlers in these divisions can get entries in the ranking race.

We've got a club paddler chasing promotion who attended a race which was inquorate and they didn't quite manage to get the points they needed for promotion when compared to the K1 Men who then travelled to Symonds Yat and only got the Saturday race. They've had some great experience racing on new water and if they aren't promoted at the end of the season will get promoted fairly quickly next year and can enter Paddle Ups so when they do get promoted these points will still count.

The issue with demotions is also similar i.e. if they had attended a couple of more races, they could have improved their worst score and therefore have more points. The rules state 5 results which is fine - considering promotions/demotions against 4 results may be a useful benchmark.

Nick Penfold
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by Nick Penfold » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:04 am

The number of paddlers going up needs to be reflected in the numbers going down otherwise Div 1 in particular could be very oversubscribed.
No, it's more complicated than that, Dee. The number of paddlers promoted during the course of the year plus any end-of-year promotions needs to be balanced against the numbers who have dropped out this year plus demotions...

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by Dee » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:49 am

Nick Penfold wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:04 am
The number of paddlers going up needs to be reflected in the numbers going down otherwise Div 1 in particular could be very oversubscribed.
No, it's more complicated than that, Dee. The number of paddlers promoted during the course of the year plus any end-of-year promotions needs to be balanced against the numbers who have dropped out this year plus demotions...
Yes I realise that it is overall totals going up, down and out that matter. However, I was referring to the suggestion that extra's be promoted because of competition cancellations and pointing out that the cancellations could affect those in line for demotion too. So, there may be some that say they wouldn't have got demoted if race 'x' had not been cancelled and if we push more up then we could be pushing more down, thus exacerbating the problems of cancelled races for those at the lower end of the divisions. So taking into account cancelled races is just a minefield and whatever is done will be potentially 'unfair' on someone.

Where a div 2 paddler is pushing for promotion and saying they've just missed out because of cancelled races, then this becomes more significant. I'd also argue that neither Shepperton nor Dart were/are full, so paddlers wanting promotion should have been/be at these comps.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Nigel
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:16 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by Nigel » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:23 pm

Well my youngest missed the promotion yesterday with a quorate 5 C1M, needed 212, pipped to second place by 1.5secs, now if he'd not had a quorate class using the divider he'd have got 250 relevant to the div3 K1 men. He's gutted, but it all restarts again next year.

Nigel

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by Dee » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:35 pm

Nigel wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:23 pm
Well my youngest missed the promotion yesterday with a quorate 5 C1M, needed 212, pipped to second place by 1.5secs, now if he'd not had a quorate class using the divider he'd have got 250 relevant to the div3 K1 men. He's gutted, but it all restarts again next year.

Nigel
Nigel sorry if it came across that I might be saying 'their own fault'. Not intended to be meant that way!

Sympathies with your youngest and very frustrating for him. Ironically on Saturday someone was concerned that if the event was not quorate then points obtained would be lower than if it was quorate; in your case it is the other way around! Hopefully he won't lose heart and will be promoted early next season!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by JimW » Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:08 pm

Dee wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:49 am
I'd also argue that neither Shepperton nor Dart were/are full, so paddlers wanting promotion should have been/be at these comps.
I did actually have an offer from someone to run Scottish champs for me if I decided to enter Shepperton, but it didn't really seem to be the right thing to do, and the way I was feeling I would never have managed to drive all that way in the end!

This weekend we have our club annual meeting, which I could perhaps sack off to go to the Dart, but one of the things we really need to discuss is how we are going to run the 2 slaloms we have offered to organise next year - and as the person that has run the last few, I am going to be pretty central to that discussion, not to mention all the other things we need to talk about. To be honest, even if the club meeting wasn't on, I would probably go to the WWR on the Dee rather than the Dart, because I have never done a WWR on the Dee and it seems like a great river for it. The Dart levels are unlikely to be conducive to me increasing my score anyway - it would be a desperate move too late!

Obviously I'll need to wait and see what developments may happen at the ACM next month, but provisionally my plan is to turn Vet in K1 so I can paddle the races that suit me better in K1, and stay div 2 in C1 because that is where my skill level is, and div 2 C1 desperately needs more competitors.

I think I have said it before, the problem is not really about promotion or paddle up, fundamentally we just need more competitors in some classes and divisions so that irrespective of being quorate, each race has a decent number of entries and is a fair representation of the ability across the division.

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