C1 Promotion points

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
CeeBee
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:12 pm
Location: Falkirk

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by CeeBee » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:12 pm

You can't judge premier promotions at this point in the year.

If you look at previous year's promotions, the number of paddlers promoted picks up significantly during the second half of the season as many of the paddlers have a few results with the right points and will get another couple of good results and get promoted.

When paddlers are promoted early in the season those below them then start getting winning points and get promoted too. The stats from last year show that proportionately there was a great percentage of C1 paddlers getting promoted.

I agree that it could be worth looking at who gets Paddles Ups. However, the reason many of the Div 1 paddler do Paddle Ups at prem races is because the prem race is on the Saturday and the Div 1 on the Sunday. By getting to race on Saturday, they significantly improve their chances of doing well on the Sunday as they have had some water time. Div 1 paddlers have learned to get Paddle Up entries in fast to try to get a race. I don't think that those who are most organised should necessarily get the Paddle Up places but it is the simplest and most transparent system.

Personally I would prefer that races are either Double Prem or Double Div 1 - much more effective use of the paddlers time for the weekend particularly for those travelling long distances.

Nick Penfold
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by Nick Penfold » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:01 pm

At this time last year I was very concerned about the lack of promotions in C1M and C1W: by the end of the year things had sorted themselves out, and the proportion of C1s promoted was higher than K1s.

What happens in classes with fewer paddlers is that, because a win is relatively easier (sorry winners, but you do have less people to beat) a much bigger proportion of promotions are based on three wins, and this more or less compensates for the difficulty of getting promotion-worthy points from second and third places in small fields.

The target for promotion to Prem is 4750 points (or three wins). So 5 x 950 points hits the spot, and that's five second places as long as there are 20 paddlers in the race. In C1M that is more often than not the case. In C1W it's not, but there are less people to beat so a bigger proportion of paddlers get wins.

By the way, as things stand, the bases are loaded and it's likely that there will be several C1M promotions at Tully.
Last edited by Nick Penfold on Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

Arrowcraft
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:46 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by Arrowcraft » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:42 am

I agree with Mike. Paddle up is OK but there are too many of them and it devalues Prem. If people want to race at Prems for experience then they can judge, like we used to and there was never a shortage of judges as a result. At the Open this year there were way too many paddle ups.

I was told that there were almost 50 from around 180 entries and that the reason for this was to cover the extraordinary cost of using Lee Valley to host the event...and even this it was £40.00 to race. That's too high and the average standard of the competitor was reduced. It just reduced the standard of the race. The British open used to be an important race. It was a bit like a Prem / 1 in the old days.

Qualifying a right to paddle up is a much better idea and is like an intermediate position. So the top 10 Kayak and 5 C1's in div 1 have the right to paddle up in Prem after 5 races in Div 1 and abilities have been established. They can enter within the same timescales as the host division and get a race if there are spaces and they qualify for the same points. Plus they count as a competitor for the prem points calculation so calculating points is simplified. They would need to be in the qualifying positions at the entry date. This means that the best paddlers in div 1 have a right to race up and if they take advantage of that by scoring good points then they increase their chances of being promoted.

paddlerparent
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:52 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by paddlerparent » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:06 pm

Arrowcraft wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:42 am
I agree with Mike. Paddle up is OK but there are too many of them and it devalues Prem. If people want to race at Prems for experience then they can judge, like we used to and there was never a shortage of judges as a result. At the Open this year there were way too many paddle ups.

I was told that there were almost 50 from around 180 entries and that the reason for this was to cover the extraordinary cost of using Lee Valley to host the event...and even this it was £40.00 to race. That's too high and the average standard of the competitor was reduced. It just reduced the standard of the race. The British open used to be an important race. It was a bit like a Prem / 1 in the old days.

Qualifying a right to paddle up is a much better idea and is like an intermediate position. So the top 10 Kayak and 5 C1's in div 1 have the right to paddle up in Prem after 5 races in Div 1 and abilities have been established. They can enter within the same timescales as the host division and get a race if there are spaces and they qualify for the same points. Plus they count as a competitor for the prem points calculation so calculating points is simplified. They would need to be in the qualifying positions at the entry date. This means that the best paddlers in div 1 have a right to race up and if they take advantage of that by scoring good points then they increase their chances of being promoted.
Comment is about Promotion points not Paddle ups - lets keep to the subject or start another thread

Arrowcraft
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:46 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by Arrowcraft » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:47 pm

The whole point of paddle up is to win promotion points. Read Mikes post and you will see that I am agreeing with his point about the quality of paddle ups and their contribution to promotion points. the vast majority of PU paddlers offer no value to the Premier race and secure no points so why are they there?

Arrowcraft
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:46 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by Arrowcraft » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:49 pm

If they enter the race then they should be included in the points awarded...or they are just in the way.

djberriman
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by djberriman » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:33 pm

"the vast majority of PU paddlers offer no value to the Premier race"

eh? What?

"and secure no points so why are they there?"

To gain experience on a prem course under race conditions, perhaps just to gain experience, some like to race every week, some will have limited opportunities to race for various reasons (distance/cost/parents available etc etc), sibling/parent racing, PU offers more opportunities, I'm sure there are other reasons too that I haven't thought of.

Mike Mitchell
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:44 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by Mike Mitchell » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:36 pm

djberriman wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:33 pm
"the vast majority of PU paddlers offer no value to the Premier race"

eh? What?

"and secure no points so why are they there?"

To gain experience on a prem course under race conditions, perhaps just to gain experience, some like to race every week, some will have limited opportunities to race for various reasons (distance/cost/parents available etc etc), sibling/parent racing, PU offers more opportunities, I'm sure there are other reasons too that I haven't thought of.
Yes but some Div1 paddlers are chasing Promotion points and a PU entry could just give them the points needed.
After all they are the top ranked paddlers in the lower division and also need the experience of racing in the division above.
Also by having the top ranked paddlers from the division below qualifying first for a paddle up, it will keep the standard of the higher division better than just letting anyone enter.
This still douse not answer the original question in this post sorry, but it is all about points at the end of the Day.

CeeBee
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:12 pm
Location: Falkirk

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by CeeBee » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:44 pm

Paddling is not all about points. Paddling is so much more than that.

Our club paddlers raced at the British Open for experience. They happen to be at the top of Div 1 chasing promotion but to them, this was a great chance to race at Lee Valley and see how they got on. They were able to watch Prem paddlers and compare their result with them. It will help them once they reach prem as it has given them a taste of competing with no practice run.

It does not dilute the prem race in any way. The prem paddlers are only compared to those in prem and the Div 1 Paddle up paddlers have no effect on the prem points earned.

Arrowcraft
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:46 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by Arrowcraft » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:24 pm

That's fine, but prem races are the pinnacle of our sport and these races are all about points.

Top Div 1's might be able to add value to the race by trying to score promotion points and gaining experience. But there is no value to prem for little Jonny or Jane coming and pretending they're in prem unless there is pressure because prem is about performance under pressure and this means points.

Maybe, for promotion points, work on an average. Perhaps a median over the season. Take out the highest and lowest score and then take an average number of points from the remaining races. If you are over 920 or something after 5 races (to be determined by DJB probably) for the median score than you are up. So if you do race up in prem, the risk is that it can drag your average down if you perform badly. That way, paddlers hoping for promotion get some pressure when racing at a prem race. At the moment there is no risk. This might also sharpen athletes focus on every race and could improve performances in every race in every division. If your races are hit or miss in div 1 (2nd or 22nd for example) you will have a lower median average than someone who consistently comes in 6th or 7th but rarely hits 2nd. Who is the better paddler? Who is likely to do well in Prem?

This means that experience is a factor in racing, as much as youth. Maybe we would lose less paddlers at 18 if this were the case? What do we think? The youths will adapt of course and have to beat the more experienced paddlers by performing better more often to get promoted. Div 1's have around 20 races to get points at these days, sooner or later everyone ends up in prem with our current model.

djberriman
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by djberriman » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:26 am

Easiest way to prevent prem being devalued by having Johny and Jane there is to ensure every event is full which would lead to better competition and a better reflection of each paddlers performance and make the points a better reflection on each paddlers true ability.

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by JimW » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:49 am

A small point about stats, the median will be exactly the same if you take out the highest and lowest score because it is the middle value in a data set when you put the data in order (or mid point of the 2 middle values if you have an even number of values)

You go on to talk about 'average' further on which suggests to me that you are actually wanting to use the arithmetic mean after removing top and bottom results?

I'm not sure about removing top and bottom results, I would have throught it was unlikely that a top end paddler would have an exceptionally good race that skews the stats, more likely they will have a couple of exceptionally bad days (perhaps for reasons outsde of their control, like sickness or equipment failure) that skew them. How about simply discarding the 2 lowest scores and using the mean of the others?

One feature that I can see with this would be that there would be no promotions early in the season and then after 5 (or is it 7 so that discards are included?) there would be a group of promotions, and then fewer for the rest of the season as it gets more difficult to improve a mean score over time. This could mean a paddler who gets home* venue advantage for a few races early season is promoted who wouldn't have been if some of those races were later in the season, and vice versa? With the best 5 system, such a paddler would still get the promotion because only the home advantage races will count, it is just a matter of when. If you really want consistently good paddlers across all kinds of course, there is still more to think about to reduce the effect of home advantage...

*I'm calling it 'home venue advantage' for convenience, - where I have such an advantage it is not necessarily about how near the venues are to me or how well I know them, but rather some venues suit my paddling style much better than others.

WindsorCC
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:22 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by WindsorCC » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:23 pm

Looking back at the original post, it was about paddlers who've had some really good results but aren't quite there for promotion.

Rather than playing around with points to try and manage it purely with in-year, how about dealing with it as year-end promotions (which I believe is being discussed for this year given the number of cancelled Div 1 races).

Appreciate why we moved from purely year-end to in-season promotion (good paddlers spending the year stuck winning Div 1s when they could have gone up) but how about a hybrid.

Combined with publishing a target size for Prem and Div 1 at the start of the season it would allow those really good paddlers to progress in-season, allow some scope for those at the top of Div 1 end of season to go up (maybe top 3), and those at the lower-ends of Prem and Div 1 would know what they need to achieve to stay up, which would increase competition throughout the divisions.

Nick Penfold
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by Nick Penfold » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:19 pm

Looking back at the original post, it was about paddlers who've had some really good results but aren't quite there for promotion.
Thank you WindsorCC, it was. And since it was posted the numbers promoted in C1 have sorted themselves out nicely. The shortfall due to lost races is in K1M, and it does need review by the committee.

Jasper
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 12:44 pm

Re: C1 Promotion points

Post by Jasper » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:21 pm

If the committee do look into possible forced end of season promotions for those left just short of the stated number of ranking points required to go up by right due to the few cancelled races, then they should also take into consideration how many races those that are close to the required number of points have competed in this season anyway.

For those that have only been able to attend less than 10 races, then I would agree that their overall total number of rankings points secured may have been affected, if they were planning on attending any of the cancelled events.

For those that have been able to attend 10 or more races already, they have had ample opportunity to demonstrate their capabilities, even if they were planning on attending any of the cancelled events as well.

The committee could also investigate if any of the paddlers they may wish to discuss who find themselves in such a position were even entered into the events that were then cancelled. If they were not planning to paddle them anyway then they have not been detrimentally affected.

IMHO

Post Reply