Paddlers that have problems making their minds up!

[Dee]

Have you ever cancelled a race entry? I'd value your opinion

I have discovered that it is not unheard of for paddlers to

• enter a competition.
• Cancel their entry
• Change their mind and ask to be re-instated

There are often good reasons for this, but it doesn't always make things easy for the organiser or for the online entry system.

The system can now cope with these if the original cancellation happens before payment has been taken from the paddler's account. However, I've had a couple of instances where paddlers have cancelled after payment has been taken, this means that the cancellation instigates a refund to the paddler's account which goes through our systems fairly quickly. Once that happens we are pretty much stuck.

The only solution I can come up with is to delay the processing of refunds until after the competition has happened. In essence this would mean that the organisers process cancellations as the currently do, but if refund is required this will not be given to the paddler until after the competition.

This could mean a three to four week delay in money being return due to a cancellation, but would mean that we could revert the refund and re-instate where necessary.

Is it fair/reasonable to delay refunds in this way, bearing in mind that it would penalise the many for the sake of a few?

[JimW]

I have, but only before payment was taken.

I cancelled my Fairnilee entries in May because I had decided after I had entered that I was going to Switzerland to enter the WWR world masters instead (which was a lot of fun), I was only able to make that decision after I had done some training and satisfied myself I was not going to completely embarrass myself, which given that in the actual race on the section where the cameras were filming I managed to spin out twice with a roll in between it might seem that I did. But actually I had managed not to make such mistakes in any of my many practise runs and even with them my time was still in my target area so I was really pleased with my pace, just not my on the day execution!
I did explain to the race organisers who made the cancelletion (I'm not sure if I could have done it myself back then?) - as I recall Jane didn't know how to do it but Jim was aware and managed to login from Tully over the Div 1 weekend and did it then. I think the option to cancel yourself appeared after that?

I also cancelled my Sunday entry for the upcoming Washburn div 2 (not yet paid for) once I had decided to continue to London after the Saturday race and do the Legacy div 2 on the Sunday. I have posted before about how I was disappointed to have to choose between them! I'm getting close to promotion in K1 now but even if I do get it before then, I'm sure the PU waiting list for the British Open is way too long for me to be able to make a full weekend of it at LV (I wonder how they are looking for officials?) so I'm probably not going to be changing that again other than if my K1 entries are cancelled due to promotion (will still have C1 entries for both).

As an organiser I had a few cancellations - both before and after payment was taken - I did email them before processing to make absolutely sure there was no chance they might change their minds again because the system did warn me that this was permanent and they would be unable to re-enter later. Actually, as I got closer to the race I realised I could have re-entered them as postal entries later, but they would not have been able to pay online.

As a paddler I can't really think why anyone would change their minds twice within the 22 days (approx.) between payment being taken and the race so I can't really see why you should bother to cater for that. If I do it, I will not expect a refund as I am aware that the organisers may by then have incurred costs as a result of my entry (things like prizes need to be ordered a few weeks in advance based on estimated numbers in each class and age group).

Checking the rules, although most organisers will give refunds if a good reason for withdrawl is given (injury, exams etc.) rule C11.6.2 says entry fees are not returnable unless you are promoted, or the event is cancelled, so you are already catering to the goodwill of the organisers. We are pretty flexible/lenient with our race and accept most reasons as good enough, but if I get cancellations or no shows after payment has been taken WITHOUT any kind of explanation, I don't bother to send a refund. I seem to recall I had more without explanation this year than with explanation, the latter all got refunds.

I would say that where an organiser is amicable to providing a refund, that you should continue to process it as you do now. If a paddler subsequently wants to re-enter and there is space to do so, they can send a postal entry, or arrange to be processed as postal and pay on the day (if the organiser is happy with such an arrangement). I had several girls email me late in the day about not having entered because they didn't have bib numbers allocated yet, which is whenI worked out that I could at least get their details in the sytem and print cards by processing them as postal entries with RTC to pay on the day - I think this option is good enough for oddball occurrences as you describe.

[JoS]

I tried to cancel my entry to Fairnilee because of injury, only to find out I had forgotten to enter in the first place. *slow clap*

(The injury is getting better. Cardington here we come!)

[WindsorCC]

I've had to cancel a couple this year, some of my races due to injury and a couple for one of my boys where they'd been been promoted.

Both were well before the payment date, easy process for me as a paddler as it was just e-mailing the organiser.

Not something I'd make a habit of, and I'd certainly not enter races I knew I almost certainly wasn't going to do.

If I had to cancel an entry after the payment was taken I don't think it's unreasonable to wait until after the event for a refund if that reduces complexity and workload for the organiser.

Paul.

[BaldockBabe]

I think organisers that accept cancellations for any reason other than promotions (which are more unique to our sport) are very generous. Many other sports (such as running) do not allow cancellations. They may allow transferring of entries but it's for the entrant to sort out and update on line but that's it.

Note: some marathons cost in excess of €100 so we are not talking small sums of money...

[CeeBee]

I like to think we are a welcoming sport and although a refund is not mandatory, it is a good feature of our sport. Now you enter on line, it makes little odds to most organisers. Obviously if there were heaps of cancellations then we might need a rethink.

However, the shortage of places at Division 1 has resulted in people entering early with the inevitable consequence that some paddlers plans will change.

I by far prefer the shops which allow you to return items if you change your mind rather than those who won't.

I think if you cancel once payment is taken, then these refunds can wait until after the event to be processed.

[djberriman]

It depends on the slalom, a lot of cancellations could lead to issues. Toilets/water/catering/prizes are ordered and paid for in advance based on entry, if a lot of cancellations happen it could make events make a loss. The difference between breaking even/making a small loss/making a small profit is a very thin line. As little as 10-20 paddlers can make a huge difference.

Some paddlers even ask on the day for a refund because they are tired or having seen the course don't like the look of it.

Generally we refund if we are informed before the event, in all cases where a promotion has happened.

Equally lots of late entries don't help especially when it comes to providing toilets.

[Dee]

Thanks for replies, but drifted off topic a bit.....

What I'm trying to gauge is:
- if a paddler cancels after we have charged their card, i.e. less than 22 days before the competition
- and if the organiser agrees to refund
Is it acceptable to delay returning the money until after the competition, just in case the paddler changes their mind and wants to race after all

[JoS]

Yes, I would find that acceptable to get any refund after the event. Goodness knows the organisers have enough to do while it's going on.

[JimW]

It is acceptable, but unnecessary extra work for you.
If a paddler cancels and is given a refund they can re-enter as a postal entry, but not online, that seems fair enough to me. It should force people to think about what they are doing and not just enter and re-enter on a whim.

[Dee]

Actually Jim - it is not that simple!
Yes - I need to change the code, which is extra work (though in some ways simplifies it), but is at least a one off ...

The issue is that because the paddler is already recorded as cancelled they cannot be registered as a postal, except by entering them as a postal non-ranked (or postal guest, which then means changing simply slalom after export). This is confusing for the organiser which means I get an email for help (please note this is not the organiser's fault and I'm not complaining at them!). Add to this that if the organiser takes the 'postal' entry on good faith that they will 'pay-on-the-day' and then they don't turn up the organiser gets left out of pocket

So at the moment these paddlers are already causing me and the organisers extra work.

The more I long at this the more I think that delaying actual refund is the right way to go. Refunds are, after all, discretionary so having to wait 4 weeks doesn't seem unreasonable to me.


What I'm really trying to find out is whether anyone thinks that waiting for 4weeks ish for the refund is unreasonable.

[Nick Penfold]

I can't see any reason why refunds shouldn't wait until after the event.

[paddlerparent]

I can't see any reason why refunds shouldn't wait until after the event.

Agreed & supported

[Dee]

Following on from this. I have now set the system so that future refunds (after card account is charged) will not be sent to the paddler until after the competition has started.

This gives the option to the organiser of reinstating paddlers that have trouble making up their minds.

Where appropriate, organisers may need to take the late fees on the day, but will, at least, receive the main entry fees via the system.