Unofficial UK Slalom BBS

Points
At the last ACM it was decided to change the upper limit of points for each division. I am now proposing that it would be a good idea to also change the lower limit. The reasons behind my thinking are this…
• In Veterans division, competitors achieving 250 points at division 3 are beating competitors in Division 1 in the rankings.
• The same scenario presumably applies to C2s
• I don’t know much about “Paddle-Up” but I guess it would be advantageous to them too.
• It would give a better comparison between paddlers in the Club Leagues.
• The proposal will have no effect or cause any inconvenience to the vast majority of paddlers.

Proposal by Donna Hawkins of Matlock Canoe Club
B4.1.1 Points awarded in each division
The maximum (winners) points in each division will be:
Premier 2000 points
Division 1 1000 points
Division 2 500 points
Division 3 250 points

The minimum points in each division will be:
Premier 900 points
Division 1 450 points
Division 2 200 points
Division 3 0 points

I am not sure how this would work, so there would need to be more rule changes.

Currently, if there were 100 people paddling K1M at Div1 the first would get 1000, 2nd 990, 3rd 980. . . .98th 30, 99th 20, 100th 10

How would the minimumpoints work in this scenario? does everyone get 450 points plus (2000-450)/100 for each place up from the bottom?
so 100th gets 450, 99th 450 + (2000-450)/100 = 450 + 15.5 = 465?

Is surviving a course at one division really worth almost the same as winning the division below?

In my mind we do not have continuous ranking with consistent points across all divisions. That is why you only carry paddle up points when you are promoted, and you are promoted / relegated not just one big list and the top 80 are prem, the next 100 are Div 1 etc. Unless that is where this idea is going?

Yes this is an issue for Vets that can get points at all levels, as we do not have consistent points across all divisions, but are we changing teh whole ranking system to fit vets,

Not for (or against) yet, just trying to understand what is being proposed and why.

Remember motions for the ACM have to be proposed at least 30 days before the ACM. That is proposed by two voting members and reflect teh views of the committees of their club(s)

I don't think the main ranking divisions need minimum points, not even for paddle ups.

The few exceptional paddlers who do well when paddling up are quite able to score more than a win in their own division - I never have but I can think of a couple of paddlers that have this year. Also some people tend to take the view that PU is worthless if you can't score a 5th of your divisional promotion limit (i.e. 460 for a div 2 paddler at div 1) but this is failing to understand averages, every score better than the average means you can have one the same amount less, so a 420 could be a promotion score if you have win in div 2 at some time in the year.
Personally I like to PU to get a chance to paddle the harder courses before I get promoted rather than for points.

If there is a minimum points score, then everyone in the division will score proportionately higher at each race which will mean everyone is closer to achieving promotion, unless the promotion target is also moved - I strongly advise that we don't try to alter 2 closely related variables at a time like that - it will be impossible to work out which has caused what!

At present a DNF (both runs) will score the same as the lowest placed competitor (virtually nothing) whilst a DNS is removed from the results and scores 0. Unless you make a new rule for DNFs, paddlers, particularly PUs could enter events that are beyond their ability, swim on both runs, or only do 1 run and swim, and pick up a points score that would be useful for promotion or staying in division. (It was an accident that I DNF'd in C1 at Pinkston div 1 having opted only to paddle during run 2 because I was busy with safety stuff in the morning, and embarrassing that I scored the same points as I had the previous day when I completed both runs, but it could be used as a tactic if there is a minimum points score for PU which is higher than any score a paddler is capable of in their own division - check how many 450's I have scored in C1 this year!).

I can see that there would be a possible benefit for Veterans and C2s who are not working towards promotion but simply trying to get a fair overall ranking, and I think if you drop the main ranking divisions from the proposal it will be worth discussing as a possible basis for some kind of new scoring system for Vets and C2s because it has become clear that the method used this year is not working right for the Vets.

As for the club rankings, it won't make any difference will it? Club rankings are by division first and then points.

Surely if a Veteran is fretting about points they should be in the divisions. Let's not make it more complicated than it is now.

jke wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:12 pm

Surely if a Veteran is fretting about points they should be in the divisions. Let's not make it more complicated than it is now.

We already did.
Now that any vet can enter any race, many formerly P/1 vets are finding they can score more at a div 2 than at div 1 or P races, and that if they don't paddle down to get those easy points, formerly 2/3 vets are outscoring and outranking them. I think this does need tidying up somehow?
Just because vets race for fun doesn't mean they don't care about getting ranked fairly!

JimW wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:42 pm

At present a DNF (both runs) will score the same as the lowest placed competitor (virtually nothing) whilst a DNS is removed from the results and scores 0.

Sorry Jim, this is wrong!

B4.1.3 states

A paddler who does not finish at least one run gets 0 points.

So DNF and DNS both get 0 points, but DNS is not used when calculating everyone else's points where as DNF still counts for calculation.

If you were given points at Pinkston as a DNF then that was an error

Oh dear, that will presumably be a bug in SS then.

Lets not change the whole system if its just Vets (and it is just Vets)

Hello.........my name is Joel and I'm a Vet....phew! There I said it.

Ok: the system isn't great for everyone. I know a couple of stalwarts of the Vet scene have paddled off into the sunset because they doen't want to be racing some ex prem paddler like me and that really is a shame.

Personally I can't see the problem if a Vet racing lower division events is beating another Vet with a lower number of points from higher division races. I've chatted witha few of my Purple Bib wearing comrades and the consensus (for men) is that C1's need to race a few Div 1's to get the best return of points and Div 2 for K1M's.

My conclusion is leave it as it is and come and race me at a 2/3 next season.....I'll be at plenty where my kids are racing......

Under this rule

• A Prem (or a paddle up at a Prem) who just drifted from start to finish without doing any of the gates would get as many points as a paddler who made the top ten percent at a Div 1

• Five paddle-ups would guarantee promotion

Sorry, it's not a good idea.