Div4 promotions

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
djberriman
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Div4 promotions

Post by djberriman » Mon May 20, 2019 10:04 am

Obviously I've a vested interest in this topic but I won't have by the time any rule changes are made but when you are at the coal face you notice things you might not have before (similarly I've got club rules changed to help others in the future). I know there are discussion being had about div 4 and promotions.

My daughter (Olivia just 7) is too slow at the moment to get promoted from Div 4 but I'm not worried as she is racing div 3 courses, having fun, learning lots, getting trophies/medals and it will happen when it happens.

Observations:-

Paddlers have got promoted past her who have deliberately missed a gate avoiding crossing the flow twice.
She has outperformed 3 ranked div 3 paddlers at one race racing the same course.
There appears to be no multiplication factor/division factor in the rules when Men are compared to women/women to men at inquorate events.
The rule regarding inquorate promotions is IMHO very badly worded/confusing.
Some like myself when I started go much faster than the other paddlers (30%) thus distorting all the results meaning some don't get promoted who would have if I hadn't raced. It's also quite embarrassing for said adults.

Just observations to throw into the mix so please don't take any of the above personally etc. I may also be wrong or have missed something.

djberriman
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Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Div4 promotions

Post by djberriman » Mon May 20, 2019 10:27 am

"If an Event is not quorate, then athletes are promoted if their score would have gained promotion when compared
to another quorate event as follows:- MC1 / KW1: if they would have been promoted in the MK1 event. WC1: if they would have been promoted in either the WK1 or MK1 event."

Steve Holmes
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon May 21, 2018 11:05 am

Re: Div4 promotions

Post by Steve Holmes » Mon May 20, 2019 11:07 am

I agree it’s frustrating, but Olivia will go up at some point, and in a way the transition will be easier if it takes longer as the gap from her to the main group of div 3 paddlers will be less. The girl that beat her by taking a tactical 50 is really going to struggle in div 3 for a while.
If you were desperate for her to go up couldn’t Jenny have paddled on Sunday to make the event quorate? A similar thing happened in the K1M, and also at Howsham last year in the K1M.
I take your point about the standard of some div 4 paddlers, and maybe there is a case for changing the rules to that of any div 4 paddler who beats more than 50% of div 3 paddlers is automatically disqualified from div 4 and put into div 3 for that event. That certainly should have been the case on Saturday at Wagon Lane when the first placed div 4 K1M beat all the div 3 men.

We’ve had similar frustrations this season with the really strong standard of the top of div 3 K1W. Consequently they’ve been taking points off each other left right and centre. On Saturday at Oughtibridge Chloe finished 4th, less than 4 seconds behind 1st and 25 seconds clear of 5th. If compared to the K1M she’d have gotten full points.
In fact over her 6 races this year (not counting paddle ups) her points are below with the points she would have gotten if the event was inquorate and she was compared to the men in brackets:
200 (226) 212 (217) 156 (250) 250 (250) 205 (250) 250 (250)

It was also frustrating to finish last season with 3 great results and potentially only 2 races from promotion, but then to start this season with zero points and a tougher points total for promotion.

We do happen to be in the fortunate position that there’s no rush for our daughters, they are young and will get there when they’re ready. This is a fact I need reminding of a lot!

djberriman
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Div4 promotions

Post by djberriman » Mon May 20, 2019 12:45 pm

I'm not worried about when Olivia gets promoted. Jenny is already Div 3 and yes we could have got another paddler to race, others mentioned it but that wasn't our focus.

This post is more about the observations as I know there is an on going discussion on how promotion out of Div 4 should work to remove some of the issues that many see.

I know there have been some suggestions such as:-

Being promoted once you've raced 5 times.
Being given the option of being promoted (the paddler can refuse/put it off).

There is no magic wand but its useful to appreciate the issues. We perhaps need to look at direct entry being allowed in all divisions so that those who will obviously throw the results out start at an appropriate level.

Steve Holmes
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon May 21, 2018 11:05 am

Re: Div4 promotions

Post by Steve Holmes » Mon May 20, 2019 12:49 pm

Paddlers who would finish in the top 60% of the field of div 3 are promoted. Presumably this was introduced in case there are a few good paddlers all of whom deserve promotion. Could the rule not be applied the other way? If a paddler would have finished in the top 60% of div 3 they are promoted and also discounted from the 1 in 5 calculations. For example, there are 6 competitors, and the top 2 would have finished in the top 60% of div 3. They are promoted, and now the field is down to 4, meaning the third place paddler is also promoted.

Steve Holmes
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Joined: Mon May 21, 2018 11:05 am

Re: Div4 promotions

Post by Steve Holmes » Mon May 20, 2019 12:52 pm

I’m not convinced by the up automatically after 5 races. For example, that would put little Peter from Manvers into div 3 and he clearly isn’t ready, great little confident paddler though he is.

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Div4 promotions

Post by Dee » Mon May 20, 2019 1:03 pm

djberriman wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:04 am
Some like myself when I started go much faster than the other paddlers (30%) thus distorting all the results meaning some don't get promoted who would have if I hadn't raced. It's also quite embarrassing for said adults.
Div 4 promotions have been tweeked numerous times, but it is incredibly hard to come up with any consistent system when class quality and turn out is so variable.
In the dim distant past a significantly bigger turnout would have meant that law of averages provided some kind of consistency. One odd ball :wink: paddler would have had less impact in a class of 30+ paddlers. Paddlers can apply for direct ranking into div 3 but it’s easier to just go and win a div 4. It is pretty much impossible to ‘legislate ‘ for this scenario - was it really that ‘you’ were so good or just that none of the other paddlers had been in a boat before.
djberriman wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:04 am
Paddlers have got promoted past her who have deliberately missed a gate avoiding crossing the flow twice.
Course design should ensure that this type of deliberate ‘miss’ to avoid a cross results in at least two gates being missed and thus 100 point penalty being incurred. Unfortunately not all course designers realise this and it is not always easy to achieve. I sometimes think that promotion from div 4 should be restricted such thata paddler can only be promoted when they have not received a 50! I suspect though that this could present another set of problems
djberriman wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:04 am
She has outperformed 3 ranked div 3 paddlers at one race racing the same course.
Note that a div 4 paddler is also promoted if their score is better than that of an athlete awarded more than 100 points in the corresponding division 3 event. so beating a sufficient number of div 3s will achieve promotion. Having said that there will always be overlap between the divisions this is just the nature of a divisional system and is why paddle-up is useful to some in higher divisions
djberriman wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:04 am
There appears to be no multiplication factor/division factor in the rules when Men are compared to women/women to men at inquorate events.
I think there used to be a factor (not sure though) but that this was removed as a small, weak, div 4 men’s event could easily result in K1W promotions of those who weren’t ready and some years paddlers (or parents) have complained that promotion out of div 4 was too quick.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

CeeBee
Posts: 331
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Location: Falkirk

Re: Div4 promotions

Post by CeeBee » Mon May 20, 2019 1:51 pm

I've just reread the promotion rules for Division 4 (rule 6.6.3)

A Division 4 event is quorate with 3 paddlers.


Promotion is achieved as follows:
6.6.3.a Promotion from Quorate Division 4 competitions (See 1.4)
All Events: 1 in 5 (or part thereof).
OR if their score is better than that of an athlete awarded more than 100 points in the corresponding division 3 event.

If an Event is not quorate, then athletes are promoted if their score would have gained promotion when compared to another quorate event as follows:- MC1 / KW1: if they would have been promoted in the MK1 event.
WC1: if they would have been promoted in either the WK1 or MK1 event.
In all cases where two, or more, athletes are tied on best run scores for the last promotion place from Division 4 then all such athletes are promoted.

The comparison against 100 points in the corresponding Division 3 class only seems to apply to quorate events. This should apply equally to inquorate events. This is like finishing 7th or better when 10 paddlers are racing so seems a reasonable comparison but could be reduced to 8th or better (i probably wouldn't go below that) . Hopefully the paddler will compete in enough quorate races so they can be promoted when they are ready.

The most important thing at this level is that they enjoyed the competition, won a prize and had fun so they keep competing.

Would the following wording be easier?

Promotion is achieved as follows:
6.6.3.a Promotion from Division 4 competitions

If their score is better than that of an athlete awarded more than 100 points in the corresponding division 3 event.

OR
If an event is quorate (see 1.4) : 1 in 5 (or part thereof).

OR

If an Event is not quorate, then athletes are promoted if their score would have gained promotion when compared to another quorate event as follows:- MC1 / KW1: if they would have been promoted in the MK1 event.
WC1: if they would have been promoted in either the WK1 or MK1 event.
In all cases where two, or more, athletes are tied on best run scores for the last promotion place from Division 4 then all such athletes are promoted.

djberriman
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Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Div4 promotions

Post by djberriman » Mon May 20, 2019 9:23 pm

Its the terminology that is confusing and the layout doesn't help.

If an Event is not quorate, then athletes are promoted if their score would have gained promotion when compared to another quorate event as follows:- MC1 / KW1: if they would have been promoted in the MK1 event.
WC1: if they would have been promoted in either the WK1 or MK1 event.

should perhaps read

If an Event is not quorate, then athletes are promoted if their score would have gained promotion when compared to another quorate event as follows:-

C1M / K1W: if they would have been promoted in the K1M event.
C1W: if they would have been promoted in either the K1W or K1M event.

andy n
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:49 pm

Re: Div4 promotions

Post by andy n » Tue May 21, 2019 9:00 pm

I know there are discussions being had about div 4 and promotions.
Yes … some of my (not Slalom Committee) thoughts:

When reasonable numbers enter a Div 4 event the current promotion ratio of 1 in 5 is easy to understand.
In most cases the paddlers achieving a promotion place will have performed to a reasonable standard but sometimes the overall standard is low and paddlers gain promotion with a poor performance.
Sometimes paddlers perform to a good standard but do not make a 1 in 5 promotion place. They may return at another event and then gain promotion but in many parts of the country there are so few Div 4 race opportunities in a season that the next opportunity could be next year!
Those achieving a promotion place have no choice about being promoted. If they wish to race again it has to be in Div 3 with all the requirements to have BC/Home Nation membership and apply for a bib – at quite a cost.

Is there an alternative approach?

Scrap Division 4 and run Open events. Current Div 4 only events would become Open events. Current Div 3/4 events would become Div 3 and Open.

Determine from the results a Standard for non-ranked paddlers (current Div 4) to be measured against.

Using data from 2018 season Div 3/4 events a 140% Standard of Div 3 1st-3rd place Average* gives the following results:

Div 4 K1M - Of 69 Promotees, 54 met the Standard
Another 24 paddlers also met the Standard but were not Promoted (some became promotees at later events)

Div 4 K1W - Of 41 Promotees, 36 met the Standard
Another 16 paddlers also met the Standard but were not Promoted (some became promotees at later events)

(Div 4 K1M compared to Div 3 K1M, Div 4 K1W compared to Div 3 K1W. * Average of 1st – 3rd places gives a much more consistent analysis than comparison with 1st place only)

The 140% Standard is just an example, if lower, then fewer paddlers would meet the Standard, if higher then more.

Paddlers meeting the Standard would be recognised with a Prize/Certificate. They would be invited to apply for ranking in Div 3 but it would not be compulsory. They could compete again at another Open event if they chose. This approach to gaining ranking would alleviate many of the current bib issue problems (in 2019 to date >50% of ranked Div 3 K1M and K1W have not yet competed and many will not, but all have bib numbers allocated).

This is early thinking and prompts many questions:
Insurance at Div 4 is a nightmare. This proposal wouldn’t change that!
What happens if Div 3 is inquorate?
How would a Standard be set for C1M and C1W?
How exactly would a Standard be set for a stand-alone Open event?

Worth further consideration or bin it?

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Div4 promotions

Post by Dee » Tue May 21, 2019 9:18 pm

Worth further consideration but
andy n wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:00 pm




Scrap Division 4 and run Open events. Current Div 4 only events would become Open events. Current Div 3/4 events would become Div 3 and Open.
...

The 140% Standard is just an example, if lower, then fewer paddlers would meet the Standard, if higher then more.

...

Paddlers meeting the Standard would be recognised with a Prize/Certificate. They would be invited to apply for ranking in Div 3 but it would not be compulsory. They could compete again at another Open event if they chose. ...
Because anyone can compete at an open this could result in newbie div 4 paddling against a top prem paddler - possibly a bit demoralising.

I like the idea of the percentage standard, but I think it could be too hard for a new paddler to grasp (and remember that many people find it hard to calculate a percentage!)

It’s going to make prize giving a nightmare for organisers and some will miss out.

The reason for auto allocation of bib numbers this year is predominantly to allow promotees to enter online. It also makes it easy for organisers to handle promotion when paddler who has previously entered as div 4 is promoted to div 3. If we lose automated number allocation then we lose these again.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Steve Holmes
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Joined: Mon May 21, 2018 11:05 am

Re: Div4 promotions

Post by Steve Holmes » Tue May 21, 2019 11:09 pm

I like some of Andy’s ideas. You could just scrap the current system for promotion and use the 140% of the top 3 idea for promotion. Looking back, Chloe was one of the few that didn’t meet the standard, but she would have been promoted the next day.
One bonus to this is that div 4 paddlers (and their parents!) would know that they’re ready for promotion and not just going up because they were the only K1W and all the K1M got 50s!
Last edited by Steve Holmes on Wed May 22, 2019 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

WindsorCC
Posts: 113
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Re: Div4 promotions

Post by WindsorCC » Wed May 22, 2019 7:39 am

Interesting idea around changing Div 4 to Open, although I echo's Dee's concerns about ranked paddlers entering and therefore messing with the percentages. Not sure how to get round that though...

It sounds similar to the system British Cycling have for road racing, where everyone starts as Cat 4 and can race in that category on a day license for as long as they like, but can't accrue points. If you want to progress up the categories you need to get full BC membership and a race license, and can then accrue points.

That keeps costs down for those who just want to race occasionally and don't plan on progressing, as there's no requirement for BC membership and a license.

Certainly at Windsor over the years we've lost a few paddlers who would have been happy to keep racing on Div 3/4 courses, but have been promoted but then don't want the cost and hassle of having to get membership and a bib.

Steve Holmes
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Joined: Mon May 21, 2018 11:05 am

Re: Div4 promotions

Post by Steve Holmes » Wed May 22, 2019 9:20 am

So the downsides of the system, as I see it. There would be no promotions from flat water events, and it would be harder in general to get into div 3. This is not necessarily a bad thing. But does div 3 rely on the influx of these paddlers to keep events at a decent size? Smaller events at div 3 would mean less points for those finishing 2nd or 3rd who are still chasing promotion, and the promotion system from 3 to 2 may need looking at.
I realise this may be a little off topic, but the OP was from Duncan’s vested interest, and my thoughts about promotion out of div 3 are from my recent interests!

Edited, just reread Andy’s post. It would seem that more would go up this way as a lot met the standard and didn’t get promoted. It would still need to be adjusted for flat water events and short course events, but I like the idea in principle.
Last edited by Steve Holmes on Wed May 22, 2019 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

djberriman
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Div4 promotions

Post by djberriman » Wed May 22, 2019 9:29 am

RE Insurance all paddlers (of whatever age) should be covered by their club associate membership for div 4 (or whatever it may be called) as should all entry level events in other disciplines to help with access to the disciplines and retention.

Our chair was pressing this point home with BC this week. The current system is unworkable. All clubs need to do the same.

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