Vets - New Points System Please

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
Bob Grundy
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 10:48 pm

Vets - New Points System Please

Post by Bob Grundy » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:32 pm

The Veteran’s Division Points System isn’t working.
 
We must revise the Vets points system. My suggestion is:
 
Prem – divisional points x 4
Div 1 – divisional points x 2
Div 2, Div 3 - no change. 
 
I am open to other suggestions so long as they truly reflect the difficulty for a Veteran to earn points in Div 1 and how exponentially tougher it is in Prem. 

This chat is about Vets Men’s K1.
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I’m all in favour of one vets division. It's more fun and more people are paddling together and turning up at races. However the points system isn’t working. The best paddlers are not getting the most points – unless they race in lower division slaloms where points are much easier to come by. More points are awarded for going to lower division races. This runs counter to the fundamental principle of this being a competitive sport. 
 
The current vets points system is not fit for purpose. If you want to score more points it is best to race at Div 2 events where there is every probability of picking up significantly more points than at Div 1 or Prem races. Not something I want to do. I enjoy the challenge of the tougher courses and higher standard of competition. 
 
The step in difficulty, standard, skill, strength and speed of competition from Div 2 to Div1 is substantial. And the step to Premier is even greater. It is much harder to get points at Div 1 races and exponentially tougher at Prem. The gap between Prem and Div 1 is huge.
 
I am sure Nick Penfold could pull together examples from data on the Slalom UK website. Taking myself as an example I have outlined some of my results for 2018 and 2019 below to illustrate my point.
 
These are my points at Lee Valley 15/ 16 September 2018:
 
·         British open Prem - Olympic course Saturday - 152 points - I was the only vet to take it on. 
·         Div 2 - Legacy course Sunday - 500 points.
 
I paddled at the same standard on both days. Yet I got less than a third of the points for racing on the Olympic against Prem paddlers who are much much faster on much tougher water and harder gates. How can this miss match be sustainable? There are loads of other examples. It’s nearly as bad at Div 1 races. 
 
·         (Incidentally I got my next highest points at Shepperton Div 2 double 417 & 474 points. The water literally was completely flat - like paddling on a canal). 
 
It’s been a similar story in 2019:
 
·         British Open Prem Olympic course 1st vet  172 points. I got a clear run on a very tough course. It was easily my best performance of the season. Yet these points weren’t even enough to count towards my end of season total!
 
·         Legacy loop Div 2 same weekend: 2nd vet 390 points - my season’s highest points score for a very second rate run when my focus was on racing the British Open. 
 
·         I also raced in a number of Div. 1’s in 2019 scoring 239, 261, 279, 288 and 356 points. More than at the Open but much less than the Div 2.
 
I have paddled Vet for years and even won it a few times. And it is for me a way of keeping paddling without the stress of having to score points to stay in the Division. And I fully understand those who do it just for fun. So do I. I love being able to race anywhere I like. And it motivates me to keep fit. Plus of course the excellent company!
 
It is non the less dispiriting and unfair and contrary to the principles of competition to end up with fewer points for competing at the tougher events racing against stiffer competition.
 
The ageing process is inevitable and past a certain point, despite having skill and experience, one simply does not have the raw speed, strength, reflexes or flexibility and agility to race on equal terms in the top divisions – and hence have access to the theoretically possible higher points totals available in the top divisions.
 
I am also aware of a number of really good Div 1 and Prem paddlers who might be persuaded to declare Veteran and thus prolong their competitive paddling career. And who are well placed to put something back into the sport. However, as things stand with the current points system, I can’t see them wanting to make the step.
 
There is also no incentive for Vets to challenge themselves by racing in the higher divisions.
 
We must revise the Vets points system. My suggestion is:
 
Prem – divisional points x 4
Div 1 – divisional points x 2
Div 2, Div 3 - no change. 
 
I am open to other suggestions so long as they truly reflect the difficulty for a veteran paddler to earn points in Div 1 and how exponentially tougher it is in Prem. 
 
If this doesn’t change, Vets division will not attract Div 1 and Prem paddlers when they eventually get past their prime. These older paddlers will be lost to the sport. If they have racing in their blood there is nowhere for them to go. Paddlers may well be slowing down as they get older but they still want to be able to race on the toughest courses and be incentivised to train. Racing in the lower divisions just does not do the trick.
 
About a dozen UK veteran and masters paddlers raced in the European Masters Games in Ivrea this summer. A fantastic experience against tough competition. There is clearly a thriving masters and veteran’s competitive scene in Europe. The UK should have the same. If British Canoeing wants to grow membership and continue to grow slalom this is an opportunity to enable older members to prolong their competitive careers and stay in the sport.

Vets men’s K1 points must change. I’ve suggested an alternative. If you have a better idea please keep it simple and workable. If not please support this idea.

Bob

harratts
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 3:51 pm

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by harratts » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:29 am

Hi Bob.

I fully understand your pain and what you have suggested would appear to be both simple to administer and understandable.

It is not only an issue for K1 Men but I think also for K1 Women so perhaps you should consider making your proposal cover both classes.

Such a system is not needed however for C1 Men (well not at Division 1 races anyway) otherwise we will return to the situation when we gave them the 8% time adjustment allowance which resulted in several paddlers getting full points at Division 1 races although their actual run times were different.

C1 Men may need some similar system to be applied at Prem. Races however but I am not sure if we have had sufficient number of entrants this season to work out what it would need to be.

Your proposed system would also sort out the same issue currently being experienced in the combined C2 class.

Steve

Steve Holmes
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon May 21, 2018 11:05 am

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by Steve Holmes » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:55 am

I’m quite happy with your proposal, but then I’m quite happy with the current system. At the moment I’m in third. Am I the 3rd best vet in the country? No, but then it’s never a perfect system. In a few years time when (hopefully!) my daughter is in div 1, I know I’ll be scoring a lot less points and I’m good with that. I don’t race for the points.
The vets class seems to have exploded this year, with 15 entrants at Symonds Yat. I’m not convinced by the argument of losing paddlers to the sport if they don’t want to declare vet, if they’ve stuck with slalom this long they’re probably going to last a little longer. I think the flexibility is a big appeal, being able to race at any level.
Mind you, if the proposed entry fee increases go ahead I’ll be racing a lot less next year.

davieq
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:06 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by davieq » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:33 am

Although I am not currently paddling in Vets, I intend to register for next year, I agree that the points system currently seems unfair. I will paddle div 2 races with hopefully a couple of div 1's and would certainly not expect to get more points than someone paddling all the premium races. I think something needs to change.

davieq
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:06 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by davieq » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:34 am

Should say Prem races.....predictive text....I hate it

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by Dee » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:13 pm

I'd just hate to see another tweek to anything! We have so many tweeks and little bits buried in our rules that the whole thing becomes unwieldy. Just on the entry side alone, over half of the "bug-report" emails I receive are not bugs at all, but a case of the system obeying a rule of which the reporter was unaware (or occasionally of me not having programmed a rule because I didn't know about it :) ).

We need to simplify not complicate! I'd rather see a blanket change across the board so that, say, instead of max points being 2000 in Prem and 1000 in Div 1, we set Prem max points to 3000 or whatever. I'm thinking along the lines that, we consider what points the top five (say) div 1 paddlers get when racing as paddle ups at prem and compare this with what they would get in Div 1. This could give us a multiplier that would allow us to set points across the board such that points would be broadly comparable through all the divisions (Never entirely as there are too many variables, but broadly). The knock on effect would to make C2 and Vet also broadly comparable without adding in extra processing for Vets.

DISCLAIMER: I have done no analysis whatsoever to see whether this would work and have no intention of doing so :) just putting it out there.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Nick Penfold
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by Nick Penfold » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:00 pm

I completely agree with Bob that the Vets' points system needs sorting out, but I think his multipliers would have some very extreme consequences. At the recent Llandysul Saturday Div 1, for instance, Craig Brown would have got 1304 (at a Div 1?) but Nigel Evans would still have only 164 points.

We already have a mechanism for adjusting scores, the one we use for inquorate races. So I propose we use it: divide each Vet's score by a factor, and then compare it with his/her equivalent mainstream class.

The table below shows what points each Vet at Llandysul would have got applying three possible factors: 1.10, 1.15 and 1.20. I like the effect of the 1.15 factor best.

Image

It's hard to guess what the factors should be at a Prem - there aren't any Prem races this year with enough Vets to give a basis for analysis - but I'd suggest starting with 1.25 and seeing how that works out. At Div 2 and 3 races I'd make the "factor" 1.00, that is, I'd leave it as a straight comparison with the equivalent class.

harratts
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 3:51 pm

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by harratts » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:39 pm

Thanks for doing the background analysis Nick but your chart and the figures it contains shows exactly why we should not apply the same correction / adjustment factor to all Vet. classes equally.

While it may work for K1 it actually makes things worse for C1.

I am sure that Paul will not mind me saying that on the day at Llandysul he was beaten by Craig.

If you apply an adjustment factor of 1.15 or above to the points they each achieved then they both would have secured the full 1000 points available at a division 1 race.

This cannot be what we wish to achieve by such a change.

Of course we do not have to restrict the Vet. points to the usual maximums if we chose not to do so as they do race independent of any other class.

Steve

Nick Penfold
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by Nick Penfold » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:39 am

Under the current rules it's not unusual for more than one Vet to get maximum points at a Div 2 or Div 3 race, and I haven't heard any complaints about that. At Symonds Yat four K1M Vets got maximum points http://www.canoeslalom.co.uk/results/Sy ... ultsv2.pdf.

The view that a different factor is needed for C1 looks reasonable on the numbers published above, but it's really a matter of which individuals were racing. Craig and Paul are both top-of-the league C1 paddlers in Vet terms. It may be more useful to look at how Dave Royle's middle-field result is affected.

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by JimW » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:21 pm

I made the decision to sacrifice points and turn vet so I can have fun testing myself on the harder courses - div 1 and prem, BUT I can understand the issues for those that do want a fair ranking, and to be honest I do find myself looking at the rankings and making observations like "that person has a full sweep of div 3 wins, so I would be at least higher than him if I'd bothered to enter some div 3 or 2 races" so somewhere in my subconscious points do still matter a bit, although I am happy just to be allowed to have a go at things like the British Open and forget about points.

Chatting to Bob and others over this year has made me re-evaluate the way I see Vets. I now realise there are more than 2 camps (racing for points/bibs and racing for fun) and with the division covering such a range of ages and abilities and motivations I can see that we do need to offer greater reward for paddling in prem and to a lesser extent div 1, to attract more of the vets who are capable of doing those races.

Those that know me have probably worked out that having come to slalom late from a river running background I am completely unfazed (in K1) by any slalom course, if there was a slalom on Lava Falls I'd give it a go (although I'd deliberately miss any moves around the ledge hole, I'm not suicidal!), but I like to test my ability to get to the gates, and hopefully improve that over time. It is however a little frustrating when I go to a Prem race and there are only 1 or 2 of us entered - I have a bunch of trophies now for finishing last against PK1M, but apart from the McConkey I have usually got all the gates eventually, and it would be nice to have other vets to benchmark against, more than a trophy. It is amusing that when there are 2 of us, the other is often Dave Royle in C1, unfortunately my times are getting further away from his at the moment... Yorkshire Slalom very generously awarded top K1 and top C1 vets trophies at Tees this weekend, so Dave and I both left with a 1st place trophy from the Prem on Saturday, and Joel left with 2 first place trophies from Div 1 on Sunday (if he stayed to collect them).

So whilst I am still fairly neutral on the points issue from a personal perspective, actually I am going to have to support Bob's proposal in the hope that offering more of a reward for paddling at prem and div 1 will encourage a few more entries. I realise this might not be entirely popular with the divisional paddlers who struggle to get entries in these events, but they need to be more fair with each other (how many failed to show at Tees where there were huge waiting lists both days of paddlers keen to use the entry slots?).

Whether the factors are x2 and x4 or something else like x1.5 and x3 is trivial in terms of the programming, introducing the concept in the first place is where the headaches will come for Dee.
It has been touched on that there is another Pachyderm on the premises, that when a bunch of what would have been P/1 vets descend on a div 2 race or 3 race for points, several of them can achieve full points because we are always treated like an inquorate host class. How about (and this would be a real headache for Dee!), if a Vet beats the first place host division paddler, AND the Vets class within vets would have been quorate in its right (i.e. 5 or more, or maybe 3 or more like div 4?), Vets scores are not compared to host division but distributed as if it was a host division. I think this would only have an impact on K1M, I don't think I have seen 5 x K1W vets or 5 x C1 vets of any gender on the same start line (I think we only have 1 C1W?). I have to say that I have also come around to Steve Harratt's suggestion that in the regular divisions all other classes should be factored and compared to K1M to more accurately grade the points to ability/speed, in which case it would simplify the above to just checking Vets K1M for quoracy to decide whether to compare or score separately (other vet classes to always score by comparison as at present).

As a div 2/3 organiser, I would hope that my thoughts above would not stop the better vets entering div 2 and 3 races for points if they are going to have to work harder for them - where P and 1 events are too full, 2 and 3 are usually short and making up numbers with Vets is always welcome, especially on artificial courses where we have a real challenge to meet costs in the first place!

Bottom line: Vets is complicated because there is a such a range of abilities, backgrounds and motivations that need to be encompassed. It should work for strong ex-prem/team paddlers who want to properly test themselves against each other, just as well as it works for sometimes relatively inexperienced mums and dads just wanting to have a fun paddle in the same division as their kids and everyone else in between these extremes.

chriswilde
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 8:41 pm

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by chriswilde » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:49 pm

Well done Joel and thank you !..... you got me 💪🏻🛶

I have really enjoyed racing this year, it’s been great! Bring on 2020.

chriswilde
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 8:41 pm

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by chriswilde » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:02 pm

Oh and I will say it again, do whatever to the points system, but keep it simple, I will still end up paddling at mostly div 2/3 races simply because my kids race in those divisions. If either of them end up in div 1 then I will race there, and I hope with more time on gates on white water I may actually score some reasonable points at that race too!

djberriman
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by djberriman » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:52 pm

Dee does the online entry, Dave Spencer does Simply Slalom which produces the results, Nick loads them into the ranking database, and with the bib officers maintains the ranking database. I run the database and write the code that provides the info for Nick's site, Dees system and Daves Sytem.

Sort of goes like this:-

Ranking system => Paddler Info => Entry system => Entries => Simply Slalom => Results => Ranking System
Ranking system ==========================Paddler Info=>

So any changes to points its Dave who feels the pain (and anyone else who chooses not to use SS).

I'll say it again please keep it simple......... what you might think is simple is a whole load of headache for Dave and there aren't a lot of volunteers to do the testing! Put it this way you don't need hands to count them!

I would however be in favour of all vets declaring a division such that at lower events prizes go to the 1st Vet of that level. We used to have it so in essence much of the code may be there. The entries and results would just show your 'prize' division much as they do for officials. I'm sure organisers are capable of working it out from there. I've opted not to race at some events as I don't want to put other Vets off and I know there are Vets who have been put off racing at a lower level due to comments made whether in jest or not so it works both way. This one might effect Dee but at worst case it could be done quite simply by either asking the Vets or looking at a year book. Any disputes in prize division to be sorted out by a quorate groups of Vets who once they have reached a suitable level of 'hydration' will make a decision.

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by Dee » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:09 pm

As Duncan rightly says, points calculations are not, thankfully, my headache. That delight falls to Dave Spencer. :mrgreen:

If Vets declare a division that will impact me (and Dave and the timing team and Duncan ...). I don’t really agree with the idea in any case as it just feels a bit have your cake and eat it. I’m also slightly concerned that it will lead to pressure on organisers to provide more Vets prizes. I’m not anti prizes of course, but it can quickly get to point where prizes in any one event cost more than the income and some clubs already struggle to make ends meet.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

djberriman
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by djberriman » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:35 pm

er No Dee. it would simple mean as Div 2 Vet (which seems fair given my results) I wouldn't get prizes at a Div 3............. still race, still get points but no prize. Cake to be bought from on site catering or baked by my lovely daughter or scrounged from Sarah if I can get there before Les has eaten it all.

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