Push all you want, but I'll stand by a fixed price for all in div 1 + prem. Think of all the gates, timers, reserving the water, changing rooms, and genral organisation and points at the end of it. all this for 10 pounds a day. your not "ripped off" or "paying through your nose". Not compared to the petrol money, equipment, accomodation ect
The present system is good with discounts in lower divisions to get kids in to the sport.
Entry Fees - Why are juniors being charged 2 much
Can you tell me where the changing rooms are at Washburn, Tully & Llangollen are please?? I seem to have mislaid them :laugh:
The organisation takes less time because of the fewer entries and I beleive the entry fee to be more than £10.00 as I can not remember when there was a double Div 1 or Prem??
The water cost is the same for rivers, it is only artificial courses that charge large amounts, the electronic timing is questionable and most of the timing is done using the Tutty with stopwatches because it is unreliable.
See where I'm coming from??
The organisation takes less time because of the fewer entries and I beleive the entry fee to be more than £10.00 as I can not remember when there was a double Div 1 or Prem??
The water cost is the same for rivers, it is only artificial courses that charge large amounts, the electronic timing is questionable and most of the timing is done using the Tutty with stopwatches because it is unreliable.
See where I'm coming from??
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
There was a double Prem & Double Div 1 at Tully in 2004 as there is this year plus a Double Div 1 at washburn this year.I suggest that Geebs helps oganise a race or two to see how much time and effort and expense are involved.
I can also confirm that at premier and div one races, the electronic timing is NOT questionable and certainly doesn't rely on Tutty and stopwatches.
In addition, if we have reduced fees at prem/div 1, then organiser's will struggle even more to break even, due to the fewer participants. Yes, artificial courses tend to have higher costs than a natural river, so how is a lower fee going to help when many races are held on artificial courses eh?
Finally, there have been changing rooms at Tully for quite a while now, plus a permanent toilet block at Washburn. These don't just appear for nothing you know.
I can also confirm that at premier and div one races, the electronic timing is NOT questionable and certainly doesn't rely on Tutty and stopwatches.
In addition, if we have reduced fees at prem/div 1, then organiser's will struggle even more to break even, due to the fewer participants. Yes, artificial courses tend to have higher costs than a natural river, so how is a lower fee going to help when many races are held on artificial courses eh?
Finally, there have been changing rooms at Tully for quite a while now, plus a permanent toilet block at Washburn. These don't just appear for nothing you know.
I endorse those thanks. As an organiser and a timing team official at HPP I know how much effort and costs go into running prem/div 1 events. The majority run on either artificial courses or rivers where it costs to have a water release eg Treweryn and Washburn, these events barely break even so I do think you should get your facts correct before criticizing. I would also question the comment that numbers drop off at Div 1 and Prem. The entries levels are reasonably healthy amd most organisers at lower divisions find it necessary to run 2 or 3 divisions together to get enough entries to make the race financially viable. It is getting increasingly difficult to get clubs to Prem and Div 1 events as financially it is not worth it. So com on then organise a Prem.Div 1 next year and see if you can do better. Oh and while you are at it run the timing as well! Tutti is NOT used at prems and div 1's rxcept in extreme cases of technical failue.
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Paddler parent
I'll bet that most of those content with the fee structure at prem/div1 were not so happy when they or their dependants were juniors, (or were oblivious to what was being spent on their behalf).
I cannot see any of the juniors I know putting off promotion to save money - entry fees are only a tiny fraction of the costs of equipment, training, water fees, coaching, travel and accomodation spent before you even get to the race - so this is simply not a factor.
Equally I acknowledge the time, effort and cost involved in organising an event. But we're talking about a small reduction in fees to maintain the fee profile of the lower divisions. This doesn't take much from event income, and as I've said it makes relatively little difference to an individual's costs, but I think the principle is important rather than some self-justifyingly smug acceptance of the status quo: events need participants just as much as they need organisers, and what is wrong with encouraging juniors, (especially to enter multiple classes)?
As to funding toilets and changing blocks - these are used by rather more than those racing on a couple of weekends a year, so why should I be expected to pay a disproportionate amount for this benefit?
Finally, Noodle, I never said "ripped off". It may not be a problem for you but we do pay through the nose for our sport. This may well be justified - kevlar, carbon fibre and hand production quite rightly do not come cheap, but do not believe that all the other costs are justifiable. Pity those whose kids do C1, C2 and K1 - you might not be quite so philosophical if you had to pay for all that lot.
I cannot see any of the juniors I know putting off promotion to save money - entry fees are only a tiny fraction of the costs of equipment, training, water fees, coaching, travel and accomodation spent before you even get to the race - so this is simply not a factor.
Equally I acknowledge the time, effort and cost involved in organising an event. But we're talking about a small reduction in fees to maintain the fee profile of the lower divisions. This doesn't take much from event income, and as I've said it makes relatively little difference to an individual's costs, but I think the principle is important rather than some self-justifyingly smug acceptance of the status quo: events need participants just as much as they need organisers, and what is wrong with encouraging juniors, (especially to enter multiple classes)?
As to funding toilets and changing blocks - these are used by rather more than those racing on a couple of weekends a year, so why should I be expected to pay a disproportionate amount for this benefit?
Finally, Noodle, I never said "ripped off". It may not be a problem for you but we do pay through the nose for our sport. This may well be justified - kevlar, carbon fibre and hand production quite rightly do not come cheap, but do not believe that all the other costs are justifiable. Pity those whose kids do C1, C2 and K1 - you might not be quite so philosophical if you had to pay for all that lot.
OK, so junior paddler sees entry fee reduced by say £3 per race. Junior does 10 races in a season, saving £30 for the year.
Organiser has 20 juniors at a race. Lost revenue at one single race due to reduced fee is £60. With some race organisers struggling to break even, I can see this is going to be be popular and encourage people into running the event..., NOT.
By the way, when I started slalom as a junior 22 years ago, I suspect the entry fee was relatively more expensive than it is now. I don't think anyone is being "smug" about this issue either.
Organiser has 20 juniors at a race. Lost revenue at one single race due to reduced fee is £60. With some race organisers struggling to break even, I can see this is going to be be popular and encourage people into running the event..., NOT.
By the way, when I started slalom as a junior 22 years ago, I suspect the entry fee was relatively more expensive than it is now. I don't think anyone is being "smug" about this issue either.
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Paddler parent
Frontman, whilst I don't think it's as simple as that, you make a good point. Following Pete's question it would be interesting to have a breakdown of what costs are involved for the typical div1/prem event compared to div2/3/4. That might even persuade the sceptical...
I would assume from what those with experience of organising events have said that larger numbers would result in events being more attractive financially, perhaps to the point that more events would be viable, and fees could be reduced for all... (It's important to retain a sense of humour)
I would assume from what those with experience of organising events have said that larger numbers would result in events being more attractive financially, perhaps to the point that more events would be viable, and fees could be reduced for all... (It's important to retain a sense of humour)
Yeah, sorry, I know it was a bit simplistic, but I just wanted to illustrate the point. Maybe a breakdown of the costs would be useful to paddlers in general, so that they get an idea of all the things that have to come together to run an event. I was surprised how much had to be done when I first helped run a slalom. As a paddler, it's so easy to just turn up, race, and go home without really thinking about what's gone into organising the racing.
Of course, I wouldn't be at all offended if entry fees were reduced but, realistically, I think the sport needs to expand for this to happen. Still, you never know...
Of course, I wouldn't be at all offended if entry fees were reduced but, realistically, I think the sport needs to expand for this to happen. Still, you never know...
Financial margins in running slaloms can be very tight indeed, and at prem/one jnr reductions could make the difference. Espically as jnr's generally are a large % of the total.
Having run events at all levels its done for two purposes:
1. support and promote canoe slalom.
2. raise funds to maintain our club and its facilities.
Realistically number two could be done far more easily by club members each giving a tenner and sitting at home with a beer to watch the telly, thus saving themselves many hours of work and personal expense.
Luckily number one usually wins.
Having run events at all levels its done for two purposes:
1. support and promote canoe slalom.
2. raise funds to maintain our club and its facilities.
Realistically number two could be done far more easily by club members each giving a tenner and sitting at home with a beer to watch the telly, thus saving themselves many hours of work and personal expense.
Luckily number one usually wins.
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k1
This doesn't apply for Welsh and Scottish paddlers but as far as i understand, most juniors who are good enough to be racing in div1/prem are on World Class and therefore not only receive a lot of coaching for very little(if any?) cost; and as far as i know still receive some form of grant to assist with their paddling costs. Surely for these paddlers this is an indirect way of reducing the cost of entry fees and partly covering the cost of canoeing.