Seedy paddler & Dutch Geezer are spot on with their points.
To be fair to the athletes, the scales to be used should be set up prior to the event, so that the athletes can check their boats.
The consistency of the scales is a major issue, as it doesn't matter how expensive, or accurate the scales are, there will be some variance. But it is also irrelevant, the boat must weigh the specified weight on the official scales provided by the organiser, hence my point above.
Probably the biggest factor on the consistency is the ground the scales are placed on. If you weighed something on concrete, and then moved the scales to a soft peice of grass, due to 'give' in the ground the object will almost certainly weigh less according to the scales.
To avoid this problem, prior to the event, the scales should be set up at the location where the organiser intends to make the spot checks. There should be a 'calibration weight' (it doesn't matter what the actual weight is, so long as the scales are recording it consistently), and the organiser should reweigh this weight at regular intervals (say at the start & finish of each class) and record it so that if someones boat fails there can be no doubt about the validity of the measurements.
The boats should always be weighed as dry as possible (some events use a hoover device to remove the water!), but just by sloshing some water around in your boat you can add 0.2 - 0.4 Kg, as it is impossible to remove all of the water which stays 'stuck' to the internal surface of the boat.
To be fair, at most major internationals most of the above measures do take place ( although I haven't seen regular calibrations take place often). But at UK events when I have tried to talk about this to organisers, very little notice or understanding of the points I'm trying to make have been taken, (quote " rubbish! It's a digital scale you know, it's bound to be accurate at all times!!")
This is frustrating, as boats failing can have serious consequences for athletes, and I beleive the organisers should take their responsibility more seriously, which I also beleive should be the case for the competitors. The rules are there, have been around for nearly 20 years and should be stuck to. I do not believe in the defence 'but it only failed by 0.1Kg', as the rule states a minimum weight, if it's under, its failed. But until the organisers do a more stringent job by putting a clear protocol in place for the weighing of boats, competitors will not take the rule seriously. (Rant mode off!!)
Underweight boats - Any genuine reasons?
Should airbags be allowed in your boat during the wiegh in? my boat was 10.1 with airbags, seeing as airbags are not classed as permanent fitting should they be allowed? if not my boat would be underweight.
Im not sure if the tully scales were accurate my wieght (boat not me) at hpp was 10.8 and tully was 10.1 . Maybe the same scales should be used for all the events?
Im not sure if the tully scales were accurate my wieght (boat not me) at hpp was 10.8 and tully was 10.1 . Maybe the same scales should be used for all the events?
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. After that, who cares?... He's a mile away and you've got his shoes.
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Pingu
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Not sure why there would be a difference.
Previous contributors have highlighted some of the problems with weighing boats. The technical team who are doing the weighing do seem to have most of the bases covered though:
They were weighing boats dry, before paddlers took them to the water at both HPP and 'Tully. The weighing of them at the bottom of the course at Scotland was a double check.
I also remember seeing a test weight at 'Tully to check the calibration and they were using the same scales at both events on a hard surface.
Previous contributors have highlighted some of the problems with weighing boats. The technical team who are doing the weighing do seem to have most of the bases covered though:
They were weighing boats dry, before paddlers took them to the water at both HPP and 'Tully. The weighing of them at the bottom of the course at Scotland was a double check.
I also remember seeing a test weight at 'Tully to check the calibration and they were using the same scales at both events on a hard surface.
Out of Darkness cometh Light
As the person resonsible for organising boat weighing and carying it out in Tully, I can assure you the same scales were used at HPP and Tully, and will be used again in Treweryn.
When weighing wet a consideration was taken as to how much water was in the boat, vey often they were well over 10k if there was much.
The majority of paddlers/parents with air bags were spoken to as in theory the boat should weigh 9kg (kayak) before the air bags and it was pointed out they may be asked to remove before weighing if abroad, air bags vary but can put up to 1kg of additional weight into the boat.
When weighing at end of second rund scales had been available all morning in usual place by control for anyone wanting to check.
At finish in Tully there is a flat slab specifically for scales to ensure similar solid surface.
At the end of the day most paddlers were very receptive to the enforcing of the rules and there is no excuse for paddling underweight boats. Rules can always be changed through the correct channels if it is felt necessary.
The scales being used belong to HPP they kindly allowed us to take to all junior selection events. The slalom committee are looking to purchase a new set, plus a calibration weight. Hopefully they will be more transportable friendly as the present ones are most certainly no bathreoom scales and VERY heavy!!
It is no fun, infacti it is very tedious having to weigh boats but as the trend has become one of paddling underweight boats this will be happening more often than not.
When weighing wet a consideration was taken as to how much water was in the boat, vey often they were well over 10k if there was much.
The majority of paddlers/parents with air bags were spoken to as in theory the boat should weigh 9kg (kayak) before the air bags and it was pointed out they may be asked to remove before weighing if abroad, air bags vary but can put up to 1kg of additional weight into the boat.
When weighing at end of second rund scales had been available all morning in usual place by control for anyone wanting to check.
At finish in Tully there is a flat slab specifically for scales to ensure similar solid surface.
At the end of the day most paddlers were very receptive to the enforcing of the rules and there is no excuse for paddling underweight boats. Rules can always be changed through the correct channels if it is felt necessary.
The scales being used belong to HPP they kindly allowed us to take to all junior selection events. The slalom committee are looking to purchase a new set, plus a calibration weight. Hopefully they will be more transportable friendly as the present ones are most certainly no bathreoom scales and VERY heavy!!
It is no fun, infacti it is very tedious having to weigh boats but as the trend has become one of paddling underweight boats this will be happening more often than not.
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Dutch Geezer
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Hi Mrs H
I appreciate what you are trying to do regarding boat weighing etc, but there are still areas where I think you need to clarify the committes stance, otherwise you give an inch and paddlers will drive a double decker bus all over you and then complain when someone applies the brakes.
Weighing a wet boat, you say yourself some boats are over 10 kilos wet, so there is no advantage, but what if the boat is 9.05 kilos wet, who's to say that boat isn't 8 kilos when dry, maybe when sponged out just before the run, its 8.1 but after getting out and water getting in, its just over and legal. Your own statement "When weighing wet a consideration was taken as to how much water was in the boat, vey often they were well over 10k if there was much" infers the use of common sense and personnel judgement but surely the rules or guidelines should be robust enough not to need interpretation by officials. You might use common sense but someone else may apply the rule exactly as written, who is right.
If there is no practise allowed prior to official practise, then there cannot be too many excuses for a boat not to be dry at the weigh in, especially if its open in time, a pain for the organiser maybe, but if you want to enforce the rules then I think you have to be quite accomodating in what time weighing begins ( I wasn't at Tully so I dont know what time it started).
If a boat is wet then maybe the boat should be put on its side for 30 secs, this usually allows most of the water to gather and be sponged out prior to weighing. Maybe the guideline should be something along those lines
Also the question about fixing weights needs to addressed in a similar manner, not from a common sense angle but from the viewpoint of someone looking to gain an advantage.
As to Airbags, this one needs some careful consideration, but when the WWR commitee introduced them they increased the weight of the boat by 1 kilo and they made them compulsory for certain ages and classes. Maybe this is something that should be discussed at International level as we could be playing with the safety of junior paddlers. The juniors are not silly, if they are having to paddle a 9 kilo boat plus airbags against someone who is more confident and paddles without them, are they going to ditch the bags and put there safety at risk. I may be wrong but I think its usually the parent insisting on the airbags both for the paddlers safety and the boat's.
Please do not take any of this personally, I just feel that with good well written rules and guidelines, which are crystal clear then all these issues will go away and paddlers will compete on a level playing field for a little while .
I appreciate what you are trying to do regarding boat weighing etc, but there are still areas where I think you need to clarify the committes stance, otherwise you give an inch and paddlers will drive a double decker bus all over you and then complain when someone applies the brakes.
Weighing a wet boat, you say yourself some boats are over 10 kilos wet, so there is no advantage, but what if the boat is 9.05 kilos wet, who's to say that boat isn't 8 kilos when dry, maybe when sponged out just before the run, its 8.1 but after getting out and water getting in, its just over and legal. Your own statement "When weighing wet a consideration was taken as to how much water was in the boat, vey often they were well over 10k if there was much" infers the use of common sense and personnel judgement but surely the rules or guidelines should be robust enough not to need interpretation by officials. You might use common sense but someone else may apply the rule exactly as written, who is right.
If there is no practise allowed prior to official practise, then there cannot be too many excuses for a boat not to be dry at the weigh in, especially if its open in time, a pain for the organiser maybe, but if you want to enforce the rules then I think you have to be quite accomodating in what time weighing begins ( I wasn't at Tully so I dont know what time it started).
If a boat is wet then maybe the boat should be put on its side for 30 secs, this usually allows most of the water to gather and be sponged out prior to weighing. Maybe the guideline should be something along those lines
Also the question about fixing weights needs to addressed in a similar manner, not from a common sense angle but from the viewpoint of someone looking to gain an advantage.
As to Airbags, this one needs some careful consideration, but when the WWR commitee introduced them they increased the weight of the boat by 1 kilo and they made them compulsory for certain ages and classes. Maybe this is something that should be discussed at International level as we could be playing with the safety of junior paddlers. The juniors are not silly, if they are having to paddle a 9 kilo boat plus airbags against someone who is more confident and paddles without them, are they going to ditch the bags and put there safety at risk. I may be wrong but I think its usually the parent insisting on the airbags both for the paddlers safety and the boat's.
Please do not take any of this personally, I just feel that with good well written rules and guidelines, which are crystal clear then all these issues will go away and paddlers will compete on a level playing field for a little while .
Boats were weighed dry on Saturday, only weighed at end of run on Sunday so we had a good idea of what the minimum the boats should be weighing from Sat weight!
There is a need for clarification on airbags but it is very difficult to draw a line, in France I understand all juniors must use air bags below 1st div and wight is 1kg higher, but their set up is different as Div 1 small with high standard, our Prem division has a much wider ability range and it would be unfair to expect some of the top junior - after all they are by then raicng against seniors to be expected to carry that extra kg. Also when racing at International level they would possibly be disadvantaged.
As for weights, fixed and permentant does need addressing also but we ned to remove the need for paddlers to be running around for a rock to wedge or tape in just before a race. Many paddlers had lead, fixed in with araldite or bolted in. Obviously if a boat is repaired there may be the need for the added weight to be reduced. The other favorite was lead threaded thorugh thr foam at the back although faily fixed certainly not permenant. This is certainly one for discussion and perhaps wording at the next ACM made more specific.
But in the mean time it is important that the rules are adhered to and legal boats are paddled. Please make sure when you sell a boat to a paddler they are aware of it's weight!! a number of less experienced and knowledgeable paddlers blamed the manufacturers for making them so light not understanding the need for personalising the weight distributin.
There is a need for clarification on airbags but it is very difficult to draw a line, in France I understand all juniors must use air bags below 1st div and wight is 1kg higher, but their set up is different as Div 1 small with high standard, our Prem division has a much wider ability range and it would be unfair to expect some of the top junior - after all they are by then raicng against seniors to be expected to carry that extra kg. Also when racing at International level they would possibly be disadvantaged.
As for weights, fixed and permentant does need addressing also but we ned to remove the need for paddlers to be running around for a rock to wedge or tape in just before a race. Many paddlers had lead, fixed in with araldite or bolted in. Obviously if a boat is repaired there may be the need for the added weight to be reduced. The other favorite was lead threaded thorugh thr foam at the back although faily fixed certainly not permenant. This is certainly one for discussion and perhaps wording at the next ACM made more specific.
But in the mean time it is important that the rules are adhered to and legal boats are paddled. Please make sure when you sell a boat to a paddler they are aware of it's weight!! a number of less experienced and knowledgeable paddlers blamed the manufacturers for making them so light not understanding the need for personalising the weight distributin.
The rule, having been around for some time, must have been tested quite thoroughly. However, the new ICF rules ICF Slalom Rules from 1 Jan 2005 do not define what 'dry' is. Indeed they don't even contain the word 'dry' merely giving a table of Minimum Weights for boats without any associated text. The older 1 Jan 2003 rules did at least include the statement "The minimum weight of the boat is determined when the boat is dry", however, this was not backed up by any guidelines on how 'dry' is defined or could be attained at weigh in.
Obviously boats left out overnight, or indeed having been used in the days before a competition, could be damp. Also, as happened at 'Tully, paddlers could already have been on the water below the course, so would very probably have water on board. Further, obviously, unscrupulous paddlers, worried about making weight, could 'accidentally' spill water into their boat prior to weigh in.
Thus the definition of what a 'dry boat' is needs to be addressed if it is going to be enforced. Such a definition must bear in mind the practicalities of making a boat dry to a consistent level.
I am sure that most paddlers are quite happy to abide by the rule and do not seek to deliberately flout it. Personally, I was surprised to find that the boat I was paddling at 'Tully (my first competition in it) was slightly underweight. This was easily temporarily rectified and some overdue repairs will be a more permanent remedy (until I scrape along yet more rocks). However, whilst a few layers of resin will definitely be permanent, will a lightly araldited weight, which could be easily removed with a sharp blow, really pass muster. (Indeed the mind boggles at the thought of officials having to test this!)
This is not a rant against boats being weighed, as the rules are there and organisers have a responsibility to enforce them, but, by identifying some of the problems I see arising if we don't have clear definitions and procedures in place, this may help to forestall such problems.
Obviously boats left out overnight, or indeed having been used in the days before a competition, could be damp. Also, as happened at 'Tully, paddlers could already have been on the water below the course, so would very probably have water on board. Further, obviously, unscrupulous paddlers, worried about making weight, could 'accidentally' spill water into their boat prior to weigh in.
Thus the definition of what a 'dry boat' is needs to be addressed if it is going to be enforced. Such a definition must bear in mind the practicalities of making a boat dry to a consistent level.
I am sure that most paddlers are quite happy to abide by the rule and do not seek to deliberately flout it. Personally, I was surprised to find that the boat I was paddling at 'Tully (my first competition in it) was slightly underweight. This was easily temporarily rectified and some overdue repairs will be a more permanent remedy (until I scrape along yet more rocks). However, whilst a few layers of resin will definitely be permanent, will a lightly araldited weight, which could be easily removed with a sharp blow, really pass muster. (Indeed the mind boggles at the thought of officials having to test this!)
This is not a rant against boats being weighed, as the rules are there and organisers have a responsibility to enforce them, but, by identifying some of the problems I see arising if we don't have clear definitions and procedures in place, this may help to forestall such problems.
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Gordon
The boat weighing rule is fine, what it does not take into account is the weight of the paddler which can vary quite considerably from a junior weighing 40kg to an adult weighing 80kg, surely to make it fair the total package ie boat and paddler should be taken into account???
Or is this not the idea to make it fair to all?
Or is this not the idea to make it fair to all?
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
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Bus Driver
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slick
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Canadian Paddler
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Measuring dimensions is easier of course as, for UK domestic competitions (not selection), the only measures that still apply are weight and end radii. All other dimensions were relaxed so as to
a) allow us to get ready for smaller boats when ICF were going to scrap not just shorten the length and
b) allow short boat paddlers to compete at lower divisions
a) allow us to get ready for smaller boats when ICF were going to scrap not just shorten the length and
b) allow short boat paddlers to compete at lower divisions
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points